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Author Topic: Convince Me....  (Read 18296 times)

Undecided

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Convince Me....
« on: August 21, 2010, 10:30:27 pm »

The least populous state is Wyoming, as far as I know, with between 500,000-600,000 residents. There is an unbelievable number of counties with fewer than 20,000 people. Who came up with the idea that moving 20,000 residents into a state would drastically alter the government of that state. Did people consider buying up an entire county, and then seceding? The idea of establishing a free state is a great idea, but this experiment seems a little bit unrealistic. Was the goal to take over this state and then secede from the US? The problem is that no one subject to this "federal" government can be free. The federal compact which created the Union has ceased to exist since the War of Northern Aggression. If we are held in the Union with the threat of coercion, then we cannot be free. The biggest oppressor in most of our lives is the national government, not the state or local levels. So by moving to New Hampshire what would we have changed? We still wouldn't control enough of the state government to even nullify federal law.

Why wasn't a free COUNTY project chosen!!!!!?!
(we could still try this)
 
 
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rossby

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2010, 01:18:29 am »

Who came up with the idea that moving 20,000 residents into a state would drastically alter the government of that state.

Jason Sorens et al.

Did people consider buying up an entire county, and then seceding?

I recall some people talking about a Free County project somewhere? The FSP doesn't tell people where to move in counties. Secession is not an FSP goal. The FSP has no specific political goals--except to get 20,000 liberty-loving people to move to New Hampshire.

Was the goal to take over this state and then secede from the US?

No. Why, prudence dictates that our long-established government shouldn't be changed for light and transient causes. Experience shows that we will likely continue to suffer, so long as evils are sufferable, than to just abolish the current form of government we're ostensibly accustomed to.

So by moving to New Hampshire what would we have changed?

You will have the highest concentration of liberty-leaning individuals concentrated anywhere on Earth. What could you convince 20,000+ people to do?
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libertymatters

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2010, 01:59:44 am »

He's not far off from my initial questions of where the largest concentrations of libertarians and agorists lived as Free Staters in NH.  If we win a county, we could expand.  I also wanted to identify the closest but least taxed areas to towns with jobs, that had little property tax, that were popular with Free Staters, because why pay taxes for services you won't use?
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Mark W.
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I am interested in business in NH, civil disobedience, electing a senator who will immediately step down so the state legislature can appoint one.

Undecided

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2010, 09:07:12 am »

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Secession is not an FSP goal. The FSP has no specific political goals--except to get 20,000 liberty-loving people to move to New Hampshire.
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prudence dictates that our long-established government shouldn't be changed for light and transient causes. Experience shows that we will likely continue to suffer, so long as evils are sufferable, than to just abolish the current form of government we're ostensibly accustomed to.
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You will have the highest concentration of liberty-leaning individuals concentrated anywhere on Earth. What could you convince 20,000+ people to do?

So you try to get 20,000 people somewhere, but then not change our government. Your slogan then can hardly be "Liberty in Our Lifetime." All you are attempting to do is have a high concentration of "liberty-leaning" people slaving away within the borders of a single administrative arm of the national government.

What is light or transient about the national government? It's heavy-handed (the executive can order us to be killed whenever he wants). Also, losses in freedom over the past 100 years have rarely been undone. Look up the ratchet effect.

I think if someone had started the FCP at the same time as the FSP, we'd be at the 20,000 mark already, because people would know that a difference COULD be made (we could literally hold 3/4 majority in a county). And this organization is a long way from achieving 20,000......heck, let's say you get to 20,000 sometime... ever. This will do almost nothing to change the liberty concentration of the state (population 1.3 million)

So we move to NH, remain under the jurisdiction of the federal government, because it's friendly and its domination temporary. Even if you get 20,000 people, you still don't control any local or county governments, let alone the state. So nothing's changed. We can all just be slaves together?

I'll need more convincing; maybe an explanation of what you think this will do....
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RichW

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2010, 09:51:36 am »

So you try to get 20,000 people somewhere, but then not change our government. Your slogan then can hardly be "Liberty in Our Lifetime." All you are attempting to do is have a high concentration of "liberty-leaning" people slaving away within the borders of a single administrative arm of the national government.

...

So we move to NH, remain under the jurisdiction of the federal government, because it's friendly and its domination temporary. Even if you get 20,000 people, you still don't control any local or county governments, let alone the state. So nothing's changed. We can all just be slaves together?

Thanks for your interest Undecided.  While the only goal of the FSP is to get 20,000+ liberty lovers to move to NH, the ambitions of most participants is much greater.  Being an activist for liberty means different things to different people.  It can hardly be described as a bunch of slaves sitting around having tea together.  We each have our own ideas about how to achieve liberty in our lifetime.  And we work on projects that seem most likely to achieve that end.  We may work alone or in a group.  And, in NH, there are lots of groups doing lots of things.  That is because the FSP is successfully convincing people to move.  Our numbers continue to grow.  We have lots of allies here.  More are on the way.

Ultimately, will we be successful?  Who knows?  I only know that if I want to live my life in a state of maximum liberty and be amongst those with similar values, NH is the place to be.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2010, 10:25:25 am »

Counties are administrative subdivisions of the states. State legislatures can alter or abolish them at all. It is illegal for counties to secede without the permission of the state and the U.S. Congress. What's more, in New Hampshire counties do almost nothing (except run jails).

By contrast, states are sovereign entities with legislative autonomy and a constitutionally guaranteed existence. The Supreme Court has ruled that federal governments cannot commandeer state resources or legislate in areas reserved to the states. Congress could not overthrow a "free state" except by overthrowing the constitutional order completely, which is not going to happen.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

WendellBerry

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2010, 10:52:55 am »

Was the goal to take over this state and then secede from the US? The problem is that no one subject to this "federal" government can be free. The federal compact which created the Union has ceased to exist since the War of Northern Aggression. If we are held in the Union with the threat of coercion, then we cannot be free.

http://vermontrepublic.org/about

The Second Vermont Republic is a nonviolent citizens’ network and think tank opposed to the tyranny of Corporate America and the U.S. government, and committed to the return of Vermont to its status as an independent republic and more broadly to the dissolution of the Union. Members of the Second Vermont Republic subscribe to the following set of principles:

Political Independence - Our primary objectives are political independence for Vermont and the peaceful dissolution of the Union.

Human Scale - We believe life should be lived on a human scale. Small is still beautiful.

Sustainability - We celebrate and support Vermont’s small, clean, green, sustainable, socially responsible towns, farms, businesses, schools, and churches. We encourage family-owned farms and businesses to produce innovative, premium-quality, healthy products. We also believe that energy independence is an essential goal towards which to strive.

Economic Solidarity - We encourage Vermonters to buy locally produced products from small local merchants rather than purchase from giant, out-of-state megastores. We support trade with nearby states and provinces.

Power Sharing - Vermont’s strong democratic tradition is grounded in its town meetings . We favor devolution of political power from the state back to local communities, making the governing structure for towns, schools, hospitals, and social services much like that of Switzerland. Shared power also underlies our approach to international relations.

Equal Opportunity - We support equal access for all Vermont citizens to quality education, health care, housing, and employment.

Tension Reduction - Consistent with Vermont’s long tradition of "live and let live" and nonviolence, we do not condone state-sponsored violence inflicted either by the military or law enforcement officials. We support a voluntary citizens’ brigade to reduce tension and restore order in the event of civil unrest and to provide assistance when natural disasters occur. We are opposed to any form of military conscription. Tension reduction is the bedrock principle on which all international conflicts are to be resolved.

Mutuality - Both our citizens and our neighbors should be treated with mutual respect.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2010, 11:43:22 am »

Vermont doesn't seem to be resisting the temptation of federal dollars too well...
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Undecided

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2010, 12:32:29 pm »

to RichW:

Thanks for your response. I think it's great that FSPers are active in NH, trying to convert people already there and building alliances with other organizations. I think it's respectable to have most activism carried out in a very decentralized way. I guess what I'm trying to do is get a feel for what people's goals are. One of the problems is that I can't easily guess what type of activism will happen once people get there, as the posters of this forum seem to range from a few ancappers to neo-cons to mindless drones who repeat pro-government slogans (see below). I don't think a poll with ideological categories could work well, because people like JasonPSorens would label themselves as libertarians, which is utterly false. I guess I just need to hear from people.

to JasonPSorens: People like you are the reason real freedom-lovers question the legitimacy of even calling this a "libertarian" organization. Your post is an embarrassment, especially considering you are an "Administrator." It does not speak well for the FSP.

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Counties are administrative subdivisions of the states.
Presently: Yes. If we secede: No

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State legislatures can alter or abolish them at all.
Of all the things a state legislature could do to us, this would be the best. But it wouldn't matter, because the state legislature would have no jurisdiction (get it? we seceded)

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It is illegal for counties to secede without the permission of the state and the U.S. Congress.
That's why secession is justified. If government has been formed in accord with the social contract, as most government lovers believe, then we should be free to reject the terms of the contract. Since our government does not accept this as our right, it holds us against our will, and it becomes impossible to suggest that the government is rooted in the social contract. Simply because an arbitrary fraction of a population residing within an arbitrarily defined geographically contiguous area want us to pay them tribute, does not mean that we have to. We always have the RIGHT to resist!

PS: Where in the enumerated powers of the federal government is it granted the right to keep us from leaving the compact?

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What's more, in New Hampshire counties do almost nothing (except run jails).
Good, then after we secede we will have to spend very little time repealing laws if the government is already that limited.

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By contrast, states are sovereign entities with legislative autonomy
False, you are preaching a confused version of the compact theory of the union. Even if this is how the union began, it ceased to represent reality after the confederate states were conquered and annexed into the union at gunpoint. Under the nationalist theory of the union, your state is not a sovereign entity because it is not given a choice as to whether it wishes to remain signatory to the treaty that was the constitution.

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and a constitutionally guaranteed existence.
There is no such thing as a constitutional guarantee. The constitution is a piece of paper. It has not performed its function of leashing government very well if you've paid attention lately or ever.

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The Supreme Court has ruled that federal governments cannot commandeer state resources or legislate in areas reserved to the states.
Of course after secession the Supreme Court, or any branch of the federal government, would not have the jurisdiction to do any of these things anyways. There shouldn't be any state (public) resources for the federal government to commandeer. Finally, your assertion that the 10th amendment has been upheld by the Supreme Court is laughable. Even if it was, one time, that does not mean it is, or has been upheld, with any consistency, since the establishment of the union. In reality, nothing is reserved to the states, because the constitution is a piece of paper that does not restrain government (see above).

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Congress could not overthrow a "free state" except by overthrowing the constitutional order completely, which is not going to happen.
The federal government has in fact overthrown a republic before, and annexed it as well...remember that Confederacy thing? Yes, this did overthrow the constitutional order, because the federal government was never granted the power to coerce anyone to join the union, and by doing so, established the nationalist theory of the union by rejecting the compact theory.


***Please refrain from calling yourself a libertarian, until you reject this hideous government propaganda that you were likely fed via the state-run propaganda services -- I mean, uhh, public education system. You will never chain down government if you can't free your mind from the chains of the government.***
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 12:49:23 pm by Undecided »
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2010, 01:10:56 pm »

to JasonPSorens: People like you are the reason real freedom-lovers question the legitimacy of even calling this a "libertarian" organization. Your post is an embarrassment, especially considering you are an "Administrator." It does not speak well for the FSP.

I don't understand your hostile reaction. I'm simply explaining the legal realities of the situation in which we find ourselves.

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Counties are administrative subdivisions of the states.
Presently: Yes. If we secede: No

And how do you propose to make a county secede? It's illegal.

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State legislatures can alter or abolish them at all.
Of all the things a state legislature could do to us, this would be the best. But it wouldn't matter, because the state legislature would have no jurisdiction (get it? we seceded)

If the county were abolished, it would be consolidated with another county. The state legislature isn't simply going to create an anarchist space on its map - unless anarchists take over the state legislature.

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It is illegal for counties to secede without the permission of the state and the U.S. Congress.
That's why secession is justified. If government has been formed in accord with the social contract, as most government lovers believe, then we should be free to reject the terms of the contract. Since our government does not accept this as our right, it holds us against our will, and it becomes impossible to suggest that the government is rooted in the social contract. Simply because an arbitrary fraction of a population residing within an arbitrarily defined geographically contiguous area want us to pay them tribute, does not mean that we have to. We always have the RIGHT to resist!

I'm simply explaining to you what you would face if your group tried to secede as a county. It would be considered illegal, and they would send troops to crush you. I'm not discussing the rights and wrongs of the situation.

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What's more, in New Hampshire counties do almost nothing (except run jails).
Good, then after we secede we will have to spend very little time repealing laws if the government is already that limited.

Most local government is at the town level.

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By contrast, states are sovereign entities with legislative autonomy
False, you are preaching a confused version of the compact theory of the union. Even if this is how the union began, it ceased to represent reality after the confederate states were conquered and annexed into the union at gunpoint. Under the nationalist theory of the union, your state is not a sovereign entity because it is not given a choice as to whether it wishes to remain signatory to the treaty that was the constitution.

States still enjoy internal sovereignty; the U.S. still has a federal system. Again, I'm not discussing what I think should be the case, but what is the case. A free county could be destroyed at the whim of the state legislature. A free state cannot be destroyed at the whim of Congress.

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The Supreme Court has ruled that federal governments cannot commandeer state resources or legislate in areas reserved to the states.
Of course after secession the Supreme Court, or any branch of the federal government, would not have the jurisdiction to do any of these things anyways. There shouldn't be any state (public) resources for the federal government to commandeer. Finally, your assertion that the 10th amendment has been upheld by the Supreme Court is laughable. Even if it was, one time, that does not mean it is, or has been upheld, with any consistency, since the establishment of the union. In reality, nothing is reserved to the states, because the constitution is a piece of paper that does not restrain government (see above).

The world isn't black and white. Yes, the Constitution is a dead letter in some areas, but in others it is not. There are limits to what the federal government could get away with in today's day and age.

If you think a county could secede and get away with it, why don't you think a state could create a free society and get away with it? Your argument is self-contradictory. You think a tiny political unit with no legal existence apart from the state that created it could secede and do anything it wanted, but that a larger unit with a sovereign existence could not! That doesn't make any sense.

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Congress could not overthrow a "free state" except by overthrowing the constitutional order completely, which is not going to happen.
The federal government has in fact overthrown a republic before, and annexed it as well...remember that Confederacy thing? Yes, this did overthrow the constitutional order, because the federal government was never granted the power to coerce anyone to join the union, and by doing so, established the nationalist theory of the union by rejecting the compact theory.

The federal government has broken many of its constitutional bounds, but not all of them. This is not a dictatorship.

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***Please refrain from calling yourself a libertarian

 ::)
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Bazil

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2010, 01:30:31 pm »

Quote
Secession is not an FSP goal. The FSP has no specific political goals--except to get 20,000 liberty-loving people to move to New Hampshire.
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prudence dictates that our long-established government shouldn't be changed for light and transient causes. Experience shows that we will likely continue to suffer, so long as evils are sufferable, than to just abolish the current form of government we're ostensibly accustomed to.
Quote
You will have the highest concentration of liberty-leaning individuals concentrated anywhere on Earth. What could you convince 20,000+ people to do?

So you try to get 20,000 people somewhere, but then not change our government. Your slogan then can hardly be "Liberty in Our Lifetime." All you are attempting to do is have a high concentration of "liberty-leaning" people slaving away within the borders of a single administrative arm of the national government.

What is light or transient about the national government? It's heavy-handed (the executive can order us to be killed whenever he wants). Also, losses in freedom over the past 100 years have rarely been undone. Look up the ratchet effect.

I think if someone had started the FCP at the same time as the FSP, we'd be at the 20,000 mark already, because people would know that a difference COULD be made (we could literally hold 3/4 majority in a county). And this organization is a long way from achieving 20,000......heck, let's say you get to 20,000 sometime... ever. This will do almost nothing to change the liberty concentration of the state (population 1.3 million)

So we move to NH, remain under the jurisdiction of the federal government, because it's friendly and its domination temporary. Even if you get 20,000 people, you still don't control any local or county governments, let alone the state. So nothing's changed. We can all just be slaves together?

I'll need more convincing; maybe an explanation of what you think this will do....

States have a large amount of autonomy.  For instance the Civil War was caused when a bunch of states decided to secede and join together in a different Federal Union. What they did was technically legal, what Lincoln did in response was not.  Not that I support what the Confederate States were doing.  I think exactly how autonomous states can be will come out with all these healthcare nullification laws turn out, but technically the Federal Government is not allowed to regulate or nullify laws of a state, unless it pertains to things external to the state.
Also NH already had a liberty leaning attitude compared to other states.  So sure 20,000 people here doing nothing, but voting, would have only a small impact on things.  However only six or seven hundred people have moved so far and they are already having a noticeable impact on the politics.  Some have been elected to the legislature, and others have helped create and perpetuate movements to stop laws from passing that would restrict freedom (notably the seat belt law).  So 20k people are plenty enough to have a large impact on state as small as NH with an already existing pro-liberty attitude.
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Undecided

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2010, 02:21:28 pm »

To JasonPSorens:

I'll condense my response for the sake of keeping readers from having to reread everything a million times (ha)

I don't care if the oppressors say that we can't resist, I wouldn't expect anything else. The REALITY is that we can't appeal to strictly legal measures when the law only works to impede our efforts, and assist our enemies. Besides the fact that it's an impossible playing field, I don't see why you even provide the appearance of credibility for said playing field.

You say you don't think a lot of what happens is right per se, but it's legal reality. But if their actions are not rooted in our consent, then they win out not through legal authority (consent required), but with force. So if we play by the rules that they make, and are designed to keep us down, and they play by the rules of brute force, who's going to win? That's the REALITY.

I wouldn't make a county secede, we would each voluntarily secede, and then voluntarily enter a compact, without regard to the contiguity of our property (although proximity would be nice, hence the county idea > state idea)

If we peacefully seceded, I wouldn't bet that we would be "crushed." I cite your own belief that there are limits to what the feds can get away with, it's not quite a dictatorship yet. I do admit it'd be rolling the dice. But you have to take chances if you really want to win here.

I did not mean to claim that a state couldn't achieve freedom and a county could. I meant that 20,000 people would have an enourmous impact on a county of say 10,000 while the impact on a state of 1.3 million is miniscule. No contradiction here (in fact, my idea achieves a much higher concentration of liberty-loving people :)). In the past, secession succeeded on the legal playing field that you worship, but your going to have to accept the reality that this might not be enough. In the end, we might have to defend our rights, even against violence.

Government gets away with tyranny until we shed our fear to resist.
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RichW

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2010, 02:28:43 pm »

I guess what I'm trying to do is get a feel for what people's goals are.

The basic goal for all of us is the same...to work "toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."  We do not agree, however, on which methods (types of activism) will be most effective to achieve the goal.  There is also some disagreement about exactly what our society will look like when the goal is achieved.  Will it be a minarchy, anarchy...?  Frankly, neither disagreement bothers me.  I trust the free market in activist methods.  Naturally, unsuccessful methods will be dropped and more effort will be expended on strategies that work.  That is already happening and will accelerate as our experience deepens.  The anarchist/minarchist split is something that must be dealt with eventually.  For now, as others have analogized, we are all on the same freedom train.  I don't find it particularly productive to spend my time arguing about whether we should get off at Platform 97 (Minarchy) or Platform 100 (Anarchy) when the train has just left the station.


One of the problems is that I can't easily guess what type of activism will happen once people get there, as the posters of this forum seem to range from a few ancappers to neo-cons to mindless drones who repeat pro-government slogans (see below). I don't think a poll with ideological categories could work well, because people like JasonPSorens would label themselves as libertarians, which is utterly false. I guess I just need to hear from people.

As stated above, most people will ultimately participate in activism that is effective.  Nothing exactly like this has been done before though.  So, for now, there is a bunch of trial and error.  Like anything else: learn from mistakes, make adjustments, fail, learn more, rinse, repeat.  Over time, we'll get better, and bigger.

Hope that helps.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2010, 02:32:17 pm »

My point is simply that "they" play partly by legality and partly by (threat of) brute force. If you secede as a county, you shed all pretense of acting under cover of law, and "they" have sufficient legal cover to crush you. If you create a free state at the state level, using legislative means, they do not have legal rationale to crush you, so they have to tread more carefully. Again, this isn't a dictatorship.

You could still try to concentrate at the town level in New Hampshire if you wanted, but ultimate success will come only when we have enough numbers to influence the state as a whole.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

WendellBerry

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2010, 03:02:45 pm »

Quote
But if their actions are not rooted in our consent, then they win out not through legal authority (consent required), but with force.

Well our system today includes an implicit social contract - consensus prior to acting is not required.

The benefits of poly-centric law and private defense agencies as an alternative (as you seem to advocate) is going to have to be shown in much greater detail as preferable before people would willingly switch.
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