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Author Topic: Free Keeners aren't making friends  (Read 27633 times)

JasonPSorens

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Free Keeners aren't making friends
« on: August 11, 2010, 11:23:23 am »

http://sentinelsource.com/articles/2010/08/11/columnists/gilbert/free/id_409269.txt

Quote
In it, several members of Free Keene wanted to give the appearance of drinking bottled beer during the City Council meeting, though “not a beer” was printed on the labels.

As expected, the mayor, city councilors and police were unable to ignore what most of us would consider a spectacle of disrespect and took action.

Two people at the meeting were arrested on charges of disorderly conduct, a commonplace result of the group’s actions over the last year or so.

Like a recurring dance, Free Keene’s members routinely challenge — you could even say taunt — local police to arrest them as they straddle the line of the law.

And this is advancing the cause of liberty exactly... how?
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Argentum

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 11:53:44 am »

"You can't be free until you allow others to be free"

"Do you want to put people in a cage for peaceful behavior?"

"You just hate brown people".  Oops.  Wrong thread.

I just wanted to preempt some of the responses.   :)
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libertymatters

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 01:02:26 pm »

The comments on the story are moderated so I do not think they will post mine:

Free Keene and the FSP are showing, in sometimes more comical fashion, the way the state, any state, means to trample on basic freedoms and liberties.  They show how "authorities" demand, not just expect submission.  For this, Free Keene and Free Staters show their disrespect, because they feel liberty is disrespected.  So when cops seek to arrest them for what should be non-crimes, they go limp and force cops to carry them, which makes it more difficult, or they block police cars in front and in back because the supposed crime is not worth bodily harm that would be inflicted by the cops over non-crimes.

Morpheus had it right... many people are not ready to be unplugged, and are so inured with the system, they will fight to protect it  Those are the people who are saying that people defending liberty are petulant.

Civil disobedience will cease when laws respect individual liberties.
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Mark W.
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I am interested in business in NH, civil disobedience, electing a senator who will immediately step down so the state legislature can appoint one.

greap

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 01:18:32 pm »

The comments on the story are moderated so I do not think they will post mine:

Free Keene and the FSP are showing, in sometimes more comical fashion, the way the state, any state, means to trample on basic freedoms and liberties.  They show how "authorities" demand, not just expect submission.  For this, Free Keene and Free Staters show their disrespect, because they feel liberty is disrespected.  So when cops seek to arrest them for what should be non-crimes, they go limp and force cops to carry them, which makes it more difficult, or they block police cars in front and in back because the supposed crime is not worth bodily harm that would be inflicted by the cops over non-crimes.

Morpheus had it right... many people are not ready to be unplugged, and are so inured with the system, they will fight to protect it  Those are the people who are saying that people defending liberty are petulant.

Civil disobedience will cease when laws respect individual liberties.

Some of us would appreciate "Free Keeners" and "Free Staters" not to appear next to each together, it further entrenches the idea that they are the same thing.
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freedomroad

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 01:34:31 pm »

Just yesterday I posted this article on facebook

Ideological bigotry: Are you part of the problem? - Yahoo! News
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100810/cm_csm/318460

Also, I informed the writer that FK is in no way an arm of the FSP in a comment to the story and in a comment on his facebook post of the article.
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libertymatters

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 01:50:39 pm »

I guess that is fair- I have to admit my primary exposure to FSP as far as I can tell, is when I watch the cam feed to the Free Talk Live.  If you haver a better suggestion, please let me know.

Obviously, Free Keene, Free State Project, and Free State Now? are different in some important ways (that I am still trying to fully understand)-- but I think probably the spirit is similar.  Lovers of Liberty would agree to mutual respect of the liberty of others.  I am sure not everyone is interested in Civil Disobedience per se.  Not all blacks were walking in front of fire-hoses either.

But for the sake of brevity, I will of course accept that they are different, and obviously in this FSP forum, respect that difference when appropriate.
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Mark W.
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I am interested in business in NH, civil disobedience, electing a senator who will immediately step down so the state legislature can appoint one.

greap

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 02:12:44 pm »

I guess that is fair- I have to admit my primary exposure to FSP as far as I can tell, is when I watch the cam feed to the Free Talk Live.  If you haver a better suggestion, please let me know.

I listen to FTL too, shall look out for you in the chat. Mark & Ian do a fantastic job of promoting the FSP and mad props to them for that.

Obviously, Free Keene, Free State Project, and Free State Now? are different in some important ways (that I am still trying to fully understand)-- but I think probably the spirit is similar.

There are a couple of important things to keep in mind.

The FSP doesn't hold any form of ideological position (other then smaller government) and has no aims besides getting people to move, the others groups typically involve some form of directed activism and have pretty specific positions on issues. The reason for keeping this distinction is precisely because people don't agree on how to get to a smaller government and also on what smaller government actually entails, an organisation focused on anarchism, minarchism, libertarianism or any other ism would only be attractive to that ism.

Also many of us disagree with the approach the Keeners take towards their goals and consider them both counterproductive and extremely frustrating in their representation in the press as free staters. As some of the most visible activists in state they have a huge impact on the perception of potential participants; while I have no problems with nekid women, beer or pot that is simply not what liberty is centered around but to the outside observer it might appear otherwise.

Lovers of Liberty would agree to mutual respect of the liberty of others.  I am sure not everyone is interested in Civil Disobedience per se.  Not all blacks were walking in front of fire-hoses either.

Indeed! The fact people don't agree doesn't mean they don't like or respect each other. The way it always works though is that when people agree on so much, particular on something we are all passionate about, a slight difference of opinion can appear like a chasm :-)
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libertymatters

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 02:30:36 pm »

I do believe that while the drinking game might have seemed counter-productive to some- actually I thought it was rather funny- drinking water out of beer bottles!  Anyway, there are important parts of the law that free staters of all stripes will run afowl, and those laws deserve disrespect by lovers of liberty, even if they have nothing to do with baring breasts in public, or drinking water out of beer bottles.  I would equate drinking water out of beer bottles with a lesser version of flag burning.  Conservatives hate that too.  We should encourage all lovers of liberty to perform their own civil disobedience in even more benign ways.  After all, compliance with the state does not advance liberty.

They mentioned something last night on FTL that I remember- that it is silly to not pay the speeding ticket in other states, because there are not enough liberty activists to support you- at least in NH you have a growing group that will do that.  I would like to know how this is facilitated.
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Mark W.
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Joined FSP 20100804

I am interested in business in NH, civil disobedience, electing a senator who will immediately step down so the state legislature can appoint one.

greap

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2010, 03:42:14 pm »

- actually I thought it was rather funny-

As did I. I think this was fairly innocuous and fairly good CD, they are showing the absurdity of "authority" without going out their way to offend anyone. I don't think it has anything to do with liberty other then PR as to the idiocy of the city council though.

The DMZ (worked well huh guys?) would fall in the court of aiming to piss people off, doing nothing at all to advance liberty and effective destroying any good will the non-keeniacs may have had. We need to work with the average Joe not against them.
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 08:23:36 pm »

still beats flag buring

The awesome thing about the fsp is that there are lots of things going on all over the state.  People who are turned off by Keene style activism can find Manchester for state politics and such.  The seacoast has attracted a lot of local political activism and volunteer efforts.  Grafton and Barnstead have attracted a number of off-the-grid folks.  Folks dispirited by what's going on in some other town can just move to a different part of the state where there are other like minded people.
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rossby

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2010, 09:17:26 pm »

Free Keene and the FSP are showing...

If you can help it, please don't link those two groups together with a conjunction on a public forum (e.g. a newspaper's site). :)

The FSP doesn't support or engage in any of that activity. The FSP has ZERO control over Free Keene. Nor are they affiliated in any way. Except that a few people who participate in the FSP are also involved in whatever Free Keene does.

People too often think the groups are related or affiliated, and then express their dislike for Free Staters as a group.
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creaganlios

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 05:47:33 am »

People too often think the groups are related or affiliated, and then express their dislike for Free Staters as a group.

More than you woulod think.  I was recently at a meeting in Keene where a speaker mentioned the antics of the Free Keene folks, claimed they were the tactics of the FSP, and then referred people the website of the NHLA for the people gathered to find out 'who' there people were and "out' them.

It has resulted in a very specific effort to 'target' Andrew Carroll in his bid for Staehouse in Keene.

It has caused a number of Keene Police - many of whom are quite liberal and personal friends of mine - unreasonable headaches.

It has caused people like me - an FSP supporter from before The Vote - to side with local business owners and Keene Police as against FK and forced me to 'choose sides' and distance myself from FK antics.


As I ahve said before, I really WISH that the FSP Board would make a definitive declaration about the nature of CivDis as a tool and DISTANCE itself from the pointless, self-aggrandizing efforts of FK.
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Dreepa

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 06:57:58 am »


As I ahve said before, I really WISH that the FSP Board would make a definitive declaration about the nature of CivDis as a tool and DISTANCE itself from the pointless, self-aggrandizing efforts of FK.

except that who is the board to make that claim?
Many claim that CivDis is an effective tool?  And who gets to claim which is effective and which is not?

The SOI is clear.. but it doesn't say how to get there.

I know what you are getting at but... the FSP board just keeps needed to say that it is NOT the FSP  etc etc
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 07:16:46 am »

except that who is the board to make that claim?
Many claim that CivDis is an effective tool?  And who gets to claim which is effective and which is not?
exactly
some members of the fsp work for the federal government
some members are also members of the demo and repub parties

does the fsp board have to constantly say that the FSP does not condone the activities of those groups?
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Free Keeners aren't making friends
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 07:20:43 am »

Some of us would appreciate "Free Keeners" and "Free Staters" not to appear next to each together, it further entrenches the idea that they are the same thing.
but many free keeners (or more accurately  Keeniacs) are free staters
and if they were the same thing, he would need to use both terms :)

btw I support Keeniacs and their silly drinking games ;D
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude
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