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Author Topic: Why I am choosing the West  (Read 23928 times)

anarchicluv

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2003, 07:23:51 pm »

I appreciate the defense you gave me and I agree with it all except the bit about "An activist in the political sense he is not". If there was any thing I said that gave such an indication, it was an accident and completely misleading.

Whoops!  I guess I could have been more clear.  I used the word he in the general sense; I wasn't referring specifically to you.
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If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.
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Justin

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2003, 09:07:14 pm »

Context: we are talking about a figurative member regarding the classification of "activist"
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He may be talking to his neighbors about freedom, making use of the free-market, supporting his favorite private school, volunteering at the local soup kitchen; all things which are actively promoting freedom or free-market solutions.

But only one of them, talking to his neighbors about freedom, may work to getting the laws corrected, and thus be called an "activst", and thus should be a member of the FSP.  My only point here is that we, as activists, need to change other peoples minds about freedom.  Self-isolation, or passive agreement with liberty will not garner the changes we seek.
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Dave Mincin

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2003, 09:25:40 pm »

From the FSP webpage......," where they may work within the political system to reduce the size and scope of government."

Perhaps the word may is misleading.   Some of us believe may means will work though the political sytem, while other believe?  Perhaps one of the folks who think we can create a Free State without working through the existing political system can help me here?  Reduce the size and scope of government, how?

Don't claim to be a rocket scientist, but really don't see how we can create a Free State if we don't use the existing system to our advantage?  Dare I say be political activists!

Come on folks just showing up will not get it done!
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anarchicluv

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2003, 09:43:16 pm »

Context: we are talking about a figurative member regarding the classification of "activist"
Quote
He may be talking to his neighbors about freedom, making use of the free-market, supporting his favorite private school, volunteering at the local soup kitchen; all things which are actively promoting freedom or free-market solutions.

But only one of them, talking to his neighbors about freedom, may work to getting the laws corrected, and thus be called an "activst", and thus should be a member of the FSP.  My only point here is that we, as activists, need to change other peoples minds about freedom.  Self-isolation, or passive agreement with liberty will not garner the changes we seek.

You assume the point of his activism has anything whatever to do with law.  Legislative law, and freedom, are mutually exclusive.

And you're right, we certainly need to change others' minds about freedom, which is exactly what the gentleman in my example is doing when he talks to his neighbor about freedom, volunteers at the local soup kitchen, home schools his children, or participates in the free-market.
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If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.
~Henry David Thoreau

anarchicluv

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2003, 02:50:38 pm »

Marshrobert wrote something I agree with. :o :o
Quote
From the FSP webpage......," where they may work within the political system to reduce the size and scope of government."
Perhaps the word may is misleading.  Some of us believe may means will work though the political sytem, while other believe?  Perhaps one of the folks who think we can create a Free State without working through the existing political system can help me here?  Reduce the size and scope of government, how?
Don't claim to be a rocket scientist, but really don't see how we can create a Free State if we don't use the existing system to our advantage?  Dare I say be political activists!
Come on folks just showing up will not get it done!

The above is why I've long stressed a need to have a class of members who are those who move but don't do much more than vote and maybe be warm spectators in the audience of council or commission chambers and maybe talk to their coworkers and friends.  These are what I had intended to be the "Friends of the FSP".

Unfortunately Jason has permitted "Friends" to be those who don't move.

The FSP may need a middle class of membership for those who move but can't do all that marshrobert, others and I have been stressing and which the "Statement of Intent" says activism should entail.

That would leave those off the hook who don't feel they can be full-fledged "activists".  Let them back off to "allies" (or some other better term) who are only expected to move and vote for liberty -- and not much else.

Not all activism is equal.  Activist is a very subjective label.  Some of us believe the game of politics is the antithesis of freedom.  We will work to build freedom by making the State irrelevant rather than fighting tyranny from within their own game, set up to their own rules.  

As an FSP member and  supporter (financial and otherwise) for the last 2 years, I feel as much an activist as you do.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 02:52:23 pm by Misterbeanz »
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If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.
~Henry David Thoreau

Dave Mincin

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2003, 02:59:03 pm »

lordy, lordy, lordy, Joe....I share you feeling :o :o  Hey my friend we have bumped heads many times on these threads and I have no doubt that we will many times more, but know that I have never questioned you honesty or your dedication to Freedom.

Will agree with you that we must prepare and learn, and that our task will not be an easy one.  Guess were we disagree the most is your belief in numbers being so important.

Hey Joe I recognize that as we move to the real Free State building there will be defeats, days I wish I was anywhere, but fighting for Freedom, and even sometimes feel like what the hell am I doing here.  But Joe to me that's were the people come in.  Hey a hand to shake, someone to share a beverage with and whine about the miserable day, and I dare say even a hung now and then.  Think the personal stuff will be what keeps us going when the going gets really tough.

Perhaps I'm a dreamer, but do really believe that that will be the key to our sucess.

Can only say I can only feel that coming from one state!   But hey, this is a why I am choosing the West thread so? ;D

(not like my choice is secret ;D)
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Justin

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2003, 03:25:37 pm »

Quote
The above is why I've long stressed a need to have a class of members who are those who move but don't do much more than vote and maybe be warm spectators in the audience of council or commission chambers and maybe talk to their coworkers and friends.

Agreed, we need a category for movers that aren't activists.  The new member can then chhose to define their own level of involvement.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 03:26:31 pm by Justin »
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Muleskinner

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2003, 10:00:07 pm »

Hey a hand to shake, someone to share a beverage with and whine about the miserable day, and I dare say even a hug now and then.  Think the personal stuff will be what keeps us going when the going gets really tough.

Perhaps I'm a dreamer, but do really believe that that will be the key to our sucess.

Can only say I can only feel that coming from one state!   But hey, this is a why I am choosing the West thread so? ;D

(not like my choice is secret ;D)
You can have all this in Wyoming.
Even cowboys and miners hug each other after a tough day or a near thing.
Sometimes it is like in combat, after the smoke clears and the living seek each other out. It's the really hard trials that bring us together.

Politics?  Though I hate it, it can't kill you.
Unless you let it get too far.
That's what this project is about, right?
Stopping it before it gets too far?

Compared to the alternative, the most desolate country is still a land of milk and honey if it is a free country.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 10:07:30 pm by Muleskinner »
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Dave Mincin

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2003, 10:13:22 pm »

Hey Muleskinner, know that I will respect your words, because I believe you are one of the few people from WY that I have heard from on these forum.  (hope I am correct on the not actually certain! ???)

Also know that I have had friends that are cowboys, miners, who came out of the mines so covered in coal dust that white folks looked black, and even lived for a bit with a couple of girls who liked each other more than men. ???  People are people.  From all I have seen and heard if find little welcome, save yourself.  

I'm just so hopeful that the decision as to which is the best state is based on, which state will give us the best chance for sucess, and I am certain that will be determined by the people.  If there are more in WY that would welcome us than I encourage you to have them speak!
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johnadams

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2003, 11:07:57 pm »

Reread my post very carefully; nowhere did I even mention WY.  Your pro NH stance is making you see things.   ;)
...
I just used WY as an example since you didn't name a specific state (and if I am seeing things it's because of all the flames from the WY posters, not my recommendation of NH ;) ). Based on your posts (see below) it seems to be the state you are leaning toward. But if you are leaning toward a different state or you think your comment applies to the entire West, just let me know and I'll make the appropriate modification to my post.

FSP Discussion / Which State? / Re:Why I am choosing the West  on: August 20, 2003, 12:36:32 pm  
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Misterbeanz wrote: I would say that if we don't get 20k, the FSP will disband, and a new organization would begin the move to Free Wyoming; due to the fact that as few as 7,500 members could succeed in that state.

I had read this post before I wrote my post, and from it I had thought you were indicating a preference for WY, but if I erred, please do let me know:

FSP Discussion / Which State? / Re:Why I am choosing the West  on: August 19, 2003, 01:35:02 am  
Quote
Misterbeanz wrote: ....But if WY wins the vote, and we only end up with 10k members in the end, do you think that these members won't make the move anyhow?  I'd venture to say that a good chunk of them would have already done so, and that the rest will follow knowing they could still succeed.

BTW, I can understand your wanting to defend Westerners, Misterbeanz. There have been some negative overgeneralizations about both Westerners and Easterners in these fora--apparently an unfortunate side effect of a competitive race.
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Zack Bass

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Re:Why I am choosing the West
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2003, 05:58:38 am »



  ... this is not a project to overwhelm with sheer numbers.  We each must actively increase the liberty consciousness of our neighbors within the chosen state, thus multiplying the number of liberty-loving citizens.


Problem is, the vast majority will never ever ever agree with us.  They love being able to tell their neighbors they may not smoke crack or screw their burros.  Do you honestly believe that they can be persuaded to tolerate Victimless Crimes?  Or are you counting on some kind of Compromise?

We are more in the position of the Zionists of 55 years ago.  They knew they wouldn't be able to Convert many Palestinian Muslims to Judaism.  To expect us to Convert Statists to libertarianism is almost that hopeless.

The good news is, there are a MILLION libertarians in the U.S. just itching to find some place to go to be Free.  When we establish a Free County by overwhelming the Native voters, they will come in droves to take the State.

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