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Are you more of a libertine or a responsibilitarian?

Libertine: "If I want to do something, it's right to do it, so long as it doesn't violate anyone else's rights."
Virtue libertarian: "Beyond not violating others' rights, people also have responsibilities and obligations that may override pure self-interest."

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Author Topic: Libertine or virtue libertarian?  (Read 27521 times)

FTL_Ian

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #90 on: August 04, 2010, 02:15:01 pm »


So saying "I don't care what people think" is too sweeping of a statement and can easily be misinterpreted.  I don't care about the opinions of people whom I don't see as virtuous.  And when it's total strangers and I have no history to go on, it largely depends on what specifically they're saying and how they say it.  Someone complaining about toplessness (not nudity-- I refer to women dressing similarly to how men already do) is weightless to me because I feel the POV is rooted in sexism which is an example of absolutely not virtuous.  I have not been convinced otherwise and many people have tried (see the post about nagging above).  So unless and until someone convinces me it's not a sexist view, the fact that it bothers a sexist has zero weight with me.

I agree and would point out for the record that I never said "I don't care what people think".  As Dale explained, people's opinions matter according to how much the person with the opinion matters to me.

We are constantly critiqued and attacked anonymously on the local newspaper comments.  These people matter nothing at all. 
Once we were approached by a local business owner and parent while we were doing middle school outreach.  Her opinion mattered to me because she bothered to speak it personally and not hide anonymously behind the keyboard.  For that she deserved respect and got it.  The conversation ended with handshakes all around.
The people who drive by and shout, "Get a job" do not matter.  They are almost as bad as the anonymous commenters.
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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #91 on: August 04, 2010, 02:56:42 pm »

lots of talk about morality.  Who chooses what is moral? 
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time4liberty

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #92 on: August 05, 2010, 01:10:21 pm »

Quote
Trying to induce a sense of obligation to others in people who do not believe as we do that it's in their own self-interest is philosophically akin to statism, and the reason why it's ineffective.

Is this not the point of the NAP? Pointing out to people that they are violating basic moral obligations, even if they believe that they are themselves benefiting by doing so? Must we explain to a thief that he/she would somehow benefit more greatly from earning a living -- can we not simply point out that stealing is wrong, that it violates the rights of his/her victims?

I completely disagree with the sort of Randian notion that all behaviors should be done for one's own self benefit. Caring about others is probably the most fundamental attribute of a decent person. Ironically, it's an attribute that most of the people who make these arguments clearly hold -- I doubt, Dale, that you chose to do these charities because you wanted to benefit yourself. Indeed, I'd guess that the only reason these activities make you happy, is precisely because you do care about others, and like to see others benefit!

Choosing to help others does in fact make one happier -- but only if one genuinely does care. You can't start out seeking only your own benefit, completely disinterested in the well being of others, and then derive happiness from charitable behavior.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 01:19:39 pm by ttie »
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time4liberty

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #93 on: August 05, 2010, 01:17:54 pm »


So saying "I don't care what people think" is too sweeping of a statement and can easily be misinterpreted.  I don't care about the opinions of people whom I don't see as virtuous.  And when it's total strangers and I have no history to go on, it largely depends on what specifically they're saying and how they say it.  Someone complaining about toplessness (not nudity-- I refer to women dressing similarly to how men already do) is weightless to me because I feel the POV is rooted in sexism which is an example of absolutely not virtuous.  I have not been convinced otherwise and many people have tried (see the post about nagging above).  So unless and until someone convinces me it's not a sexist view, the fact that it bothers a sexist has zero weight with me.

I agree and would point out for the record that I never said "I don't care what people think".  As Dale explained, people's opinions matter according to how much the person with the opinion matters to me.

We are constantly critiqued and attacked anonymously on the local newspaper comments.  These people matter nothing at all. 
Once we were approached by a local business owner and parent while we were doing middle school outreach.  Her opinion mattered to me because she bothered to speak it personally and not hide anonymously behind the keyboard.  For that she deserved respect and got it.  The conversation ended with handshakes all around.
The people who drive by and shout, "Get a job" do not matter.  They are almost as bad as the anonymous commenters.


Nevertheless, what random people believe, who you never meet, has a strong impact on the direction of society. The fact that a person does not matter to you does not mean that they cannot greatly inhibit any movement towards a free society.

Not that actions should be chosen to cater to anonymous, self selected posters on a newspaper site -- because they're not representative either -- but what the people who you never personally meet think, is to a large part what will determine the success of any effort for freedom.
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time4liberty

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #94 on: August 05, 2010, 01:25:15 pm »

lots of talk about morality.  Who chooses what is moral? 

Each person acts according to what they perceive/reason to be morally right and wrong, same as anything. Thankfully, we all seem to have pretty similar perceptions about basic right and wrong. Not quite as similar as our perceptions about physical reality, but very similar nonetheless.
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WendellBerry

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #95 on: August 05, 2010, 01:33:12 pm »

lots of talk about morality.  Who chooses what is moral? 

Each person acts according to what they perceive/reason to be morally right and wrong, same as anything. Thankfully, we all seem to have pretty similar perceptions about basic right and wrong. Not quite as similar as our perceptions about physical reality, but very similar nonetheless.

1. An act is good if and only if it benefits others.

2. An act is evil if and only if it coercively harms others by

initiating a direct, actual invasion.

3. All other acts are neutral.

4. If an act includes good and evil elements, the good does not

cancel out the evil.
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time4liberty

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #96 on: August 05, 2010, 01:33:19 pm »

Dale, we're not talking positive rights... mandatory charity is an oxymoron.  But choosing to (do or not do) something you have the right to (do or not do) is another level of decision making.

You're deliberately phrasing it in a less meaningful way than he did in the loaded questions though.  You can talk about peacefully persuading people to make different decisions which is perfectly in line with negative rights.  When you use words like "obligations and responsibilities", the obvious implication is a positive right to control the behavior of others, and as it's phrased, it specifically includes behavior beyond that which violates rights (negative ones, that is, the only kind that make sense).  And "which may override self-interest" is only a slightly wordy expression for "self-sacrifice"-- "you have obligations and responsibilities to others which may involve self-sacrifice".


It's possible to have a moral obligation to take a positive action, yet it still be immoral for others to force you to take that action, right?

If I have plenty of bread, and someone is hungry on my doorstep, I think it would be morally wrong for me to turn them away. Yet, I think it would also be morally wrong for someone to force me to give them my food.

In other words, I would say that while we do have positive obligations, it is not the job of humans to enforce those obligations on each other.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 01:47:24 pm by ttie »
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time4liberty

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #97 on: August 05, 2010, 01:45:11 pm »

lots of talk about morality.  Who chooses what is moral? 

Each person acts according to what they perceive/reason to be morally right and wrong, same as anything. Thankfully, we all seem to have pretty similar perceptions about basic right and wrong. Not quite as similar as our perceptions about physical reality, but very similar nonetheless.

1. An act is good if and only if it benefits others.

2. An act is evil if and only if it coercively harms others by

initiating a direct, actual invasion.

3. All other acts are neutral.

4. If an act includes good and evil elements, the good does not

cancel out the evil.

I'd say that's a pretty excellent start ... I pretty much agree. I would probably say it's possible for indirect harm to also be evil, depending. Personally, I might also characterize self-destructive behavior as "evil" in a sense, and self-constructive as good.
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time4liberty

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #98 on: August 05, 2010, 01:48:30 pm »

I don't think a virtue libertarian would find anything to disagree with there. For a virtue libertarian, rights are a subset of morality; for a libertine, they are the totality.

Well said.
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ONLYWAY

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #99 on: August 05, 2010, 01:52:19 pm »

How ridiculous!  A bunch of rich little, sociopathic, spoiled brat anarchists deciding what is universally right and wrong...What a joke!  God determines what is right and wrong and he told us plainly in the Bible.

lots of talk about morality.  Who chooses what is moral? 

Each person acts according to what they perceive/reason to be morally right and wrong, same as anything. Thankfully, we all seem to have pretty similar perceptions about basic right and wrong. Not quite as similar as our perceptions about physical reality, but very similar nonetheless.

1. An act is good if and only if it benefits others.

2. An act is evil if and only if it coercively harms others by

initiating a direct, actual invasion.

3. All other acts are neutral.

4. If an act includes good and evil elements, the good does not

cancel out the evil.

I'd say that's a pretty excellent start ... I pretty much agree. I would probably say it's possible for indirect harm to also be evil, depending. Personally, I might also characterize self-destructive behavior as "evil" in a sense, and self-constructive as good.
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time4liberty

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #100 on: August 05, 2010, 02:00:57 pm »

How ridiculous!  A bunch of rich little, sociopathic, spoiled brat anarchists deciding what is universally right and wrong...What a joke!  God determines what is right and wrong and he told us plainly in the Bible.

Assuming you're not a crazy person, you believe the bible because it matches, at least to a great extent, what you've observed about the world, your internal observations, as well as your moral perceptions. I mean, unless you just happened to pick a random book off the shelf ... right?

And, I'd suggest that these basic moral principles are probably not too different from those Wendell proposed.

I mean, if you believe in God, you must believe that there is such a thing as a moral sense, in humans ... right?
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Dreepa

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2010, 03:11:22 pm »

How ridiculous!  A bunch of rich little, sociopathic, spoiled brat anarchists deciding what is universally right and wrong...What a joke!  God determines what is right and wrong and he told us plainly in the Bible.


He also told you  not to eat shell fish or pork.. do you abide by those?
Do you stone sinners, hookers and gays?  the bible tells you to.
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ONLYWAY

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2010, 03:24:44 pm »

Wow!  you actually believe you are the decider of morality don't you?   There is a God and He made the rules.  Your condescending attitude toward the Bible shows just how arrogant and foolish you are.  Have you ever read the Bible?  really read it?

Let's test your basic moral sense:
1.)  Is permarital sex between 2 consenting adults good or bad?
2.)  Is a girl walking around naked good or bad?
3.)  Is homosexuality good or bad?
4.)  Is beasteality good or bad? 
5.)  Is selfishness good or bad?

My ancestors didn't fight and die so that some spoiled brat bimbo can walk around without her top off...grow up!


How ridiculous!  A bunch of rich little, sociopathic, spoiled brat anarchists deciding what is universally right and wrong...What a joke!  God determines what is right and wrong and he told us plainly in the Bible.

Assuming you're not a crazy person, you believe the bible because it matches, at least to a great extent, what you've observed about the world, your internal observations, as well as your moral perceptions. I mean, unless you just happened to pick a random book off the shelf ... right?

And, I'd suggest that these basic moral principles are probably not too different from those Wendell proposed.

I mean, if you believe in God, you must believe that there is such a thing as a moral sense, in humans ... right?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 03:42:41 pm by ONLYWAY »
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New Hampshire Charter:  "Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necesity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government amonng us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such governments as shall be, to our best descerning, agreeable to the will of God..."

ONLYWAY

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #103 on: August 05, 2010, 03:39:00 pm »

NO you are totally wrong on that as usual..takiing all way out of context.  have you ever read the new Testament?  Let me maek it easier for you only 3 chapters can you read that much?  1 Corinthians 6, Romans 1 and John 8

Do you believe in murdering babies because they might get in the way or have sex with whoever you can not matter what the emotional or physical impact is on others because your morals tell you that it is ok?

How ridiculous!  A bunch of rich little, sociopathic, spoiled brat anarchists deciding what is universally right and wrong...What a joke!  God determines what is right and wrong and he told us plainly in the Bible.


He also told you  not to eat shell fish or pork.. do you abide by those?
Do you stone sinners, hookers and gays?  the bible tells you to.
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New Hampshire Charter:  "Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necesity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government amonng us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such governments as shall be, to our best descerning, agreeable to the will of God..."

MaineShark

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Re: Libertine or virtue libertarian?
« Reply #104 on: August 05, 2010, 03:50:20 pm »

Have you ever read the Bible?  really read it?

Let's test your basic moral sense:
...
2.)  Is a girl walking around naked good or bad?

...

My ancestors didn't fight and die so that some spoiled brat bimbo can walk around without her top off...grow up!

So, you found that in the Bible, did you?  Because you "really" read it, huh?

Chapter and verse, please.

Joe
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