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Author Topic: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP  (Read 79389 times)

Uncle Walt

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #270 on: July 11, 2010, 02:14:55 pm »

The ultimate solution is to eliminate "the system" that requires eternal vigilance, and choose something that allows true freedom. Hopefully that makes sense.


That's a misleading "solution", though. 
You would still have to maintain vigilance against somebody recreating "the system".
Or vigilance against those who would use the lack of a "system" to try setting themselves up as one.
Not to mention vigilance against those who would take what you have.

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Ed

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #271 on: July 11, 2010, 02:47:16 pm »

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So you think it is perfectly ok for the Government to enslave you for committing a "crime" Oh how the Hypocrisy Cup do runneth over!!

Hypocrisy? Where was I being hypocritical? Did I ever say I didn't believe that?
Yeah I think it's perfectly fine that the government can arrest, imprison, and put to work criminals. It doesn't bother me that this happens to thieves, rapists and murderers. It's perfectly acceptable to put them in prison and make them work.

That other things are crimes, such as using certain drugs, or other "victimless crimes", are illegal, and that those activities affect the public or any other person negatively only in a very vague sense, and thus merit being classified as crimes a lot less, if at all, and that there are very serious repercussions to our society that we have these policies, is a different matter entirely. Well not entirely, but it's a different subject.
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"Hagrid"

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #272 on: July 11, 2010, 03:27:40 pm »

What the 420's did show that I don't see you acknowledging, is in large numbers, the police/government will have no choice but to back down. Mass CD works.

Um, I don't acknowledge that.  You merely haven't experienced anything else up till now.  Your successes are merely small minor skimishes with a force that should it decide to, based on the judgement calls of a few, can and will lock up the contents of an entire park, detain an entire bar, or set up roadblocks and search and harrass folks they wish to.

The closest we've come, in one sense, is the Brown situation.  Yes, the police held up, until things cooled down, and then struck.
the net result was more people in jail (some for years), than would have been the case without the mass support.

Mass CD works only if the community support you.  If the community doesn't, calling in swat teams, plastic bullets, wrist straps, tear gas, etc, will happen sooner or later.  This isn't speculation, it's worldwide reality.  We can make a long long list of this happening, from the LA Riots to Waco and everything in between.

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I'm saying the way to bring about lasting change is to expand peoples understanding. Changing the law alone treats the symptom, leaving the patient ignorant of his or her unhealthy life choices.

And I agree with you here.  Education is a goal regardless of the methods.

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Without people understanding why knife freedom is a good idea, I think ti runs the risk of backfiring. In the event of a tragedy involving knives, the politicians will jump on it to say, See! Freedom doesn't work! Then they use the crisis to impose even greater restrictions.

There will always be busy bodies who want to run around screaming the sky is falling because of x. I'm focusing on the masses in order to educate them by first getting them to question their paradigm.

The above will happen _anytime_ the majority of decision makers are uneducated.  "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."

You have more faith in the masses, and I have more faith in educating a scant few thousands who actually drive political actions, and hopefully replacing the ones who scream the loudest about the sky falling.

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I have always believed the varying approaches working together will have a much greater impact than any single method alone. That's why I moved to NH.

So you wouldn't consider yourself who thinks of political action as immoral?  Judging someone you think you are working together with as immoral is a recipe for disaster.

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The ultimate solution is to eliminate "the system" that requires eternal vigilance, and choose something that allows true freedom. Hopefully that makes sense.

A nice goal... but quite hard to achieve.  And I think impossible without those of us working within the system to make changes.

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On the having criminals fix the roads, that doesn't take into account the individuals abilities and resources. What if a guy who owns a road construction company committed a crime. Would you have him do manual labor over donating his road repair entity's service in honor of his victim? Restitution over punitive punishment is the ultimate answer.

Would you trust a doctor who committed crimes to provide your health care, with him as a slave?

I'm wary of the entire slave thing myself, frankly.  Restitution is nice, but also tricky to acheive, but I agree, likely a better choice.





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Stoker

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #273 on: July 11, 2010, 03:55:30 pm »

yeah... - all you're saying is that the government legally has the right to imprison people and put them to work if they commit a crime. That, by itself, doesn't really scare me, or most other people.

Your comment about my dissertation on the 13th amendment was not directly hypocritical and I should not have grouped you in with JPS and I sincerely apologize for doing so. My post was primarily intended as a response to JPS' comments, which are directly hypocritical. Your comments in the post demanding an explanation of why I labeled a hypocrite does in fact argue that Enslavement is OK for others ("criminals") and that you of course should be exempt from this treatment. A point  I had made about the "legality" of Enslavement was the fact that this can now be applied to anybody, simply decreeing that they are a "terrorist" for instance, which means that we are all subject to Enslavement without actually having committed a crime at all. Stating that Enslavement is just fine for somebody convicted of a "crime" regardless of whether it is just or not (or if this person is wrongly convicted of a crime) and that you are exempt (even though you are not) is in fact hypocritical.
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Ed

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #274 on: July 11, 2010, 04:11:19 pm »

A) again - What? I seriously can't understand the way you write

B) I did say that there is an issue that things have been legislated to be crimes that shouldn't be. That's a separate issue. The government being able to arrest and imprison criminals in general, well I see that as pretty god damned important.
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Stoker

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #275 on: July 11, 2010, 04:48:31 pm »

A) again - What? I seriously can't understand the way you write

B) I did say that there is an issue that things have been legislated to be crimes that shouldn't be. That's a separate issue. The government being able to arrest and imprison criminals in general, well I see that as pretty god damned important.

Things that have been legislated to be crimes that shouldn't be is definitely an issue pertaining to the application of Enslavement for violation of these laws. The fact that everyone can be labeled a "criminal" by decree without breaking any laws is also definitely part of the Governmental Enslavement issue because it means that they can do this to anybody, for any reason. Right now this does not seem to be happening, but historically Draconian laws have always been used (or abused) by those that have the power to enforce them. Just imagine  if a Government building is blown up tomorrow, and that "FreeStaters" are identified as being responsible (whether they were or not). You, I and everybody else on this Forum would instantly be decreed to be "terrorists" and subject to what you imagine is only for "criminals" who "break laws" (Or are falsely convicted of crimes of course).
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SamIam

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #276 on: July 11, 2010, 04:57:16 pm »

What the 420's did show that I don't see you acknowledging, is in large numbers, the police/government will have no choice but to back down. Mass CD works.
Um, I don't acknowledge that. . . . Your successes are merely small minor skimishes with a force that should it decide to, based on the judgement calls of a few. . .

Mass CD works only if the community support you.  If the community doesn't, calling in swat teams, plastic bullets, wrist straps, tear gas, etc, will happen sooner or later.  This isn't speculation, it's worldwide reality.  

I certainly understand how you can have that viewpoint, only reading the MSM press and hearing about Keene from the politically minded. I on the other hand, live in the community. I talk to people on the streets, in the local store, my neighbors, and even strangers that recognize me. I hear a lot of thanks and appreciation once people get past the hate mongering. There are a lot, and I mean a lot of people supporting from the sidelines, because what we do is out there. I was walking though the parking lot and a guy was unloading his dog and 2 kids from the minivan. He recognized me and really supported what we (FK) are doing. Ian has a lot of similar stories.

I think that's also where the independent media is coming into play. Their system has never faced a public that manages to capture and share video of their actions. Add to that the honest conversations about their actions, and I think it's creating a very very strong deterrent. Eventually they may, and probably will crack down, and that's fine. We are still seeing the movers show up from my indefinite detention.

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The above will happen _anytime_ the majority of decision makers are uneducated.  "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."

You have more faith in the masses, and I have more faith in educating a scant few thousands who actually drive political actions, and hopefully replacing the ones who scream the loudest about the sky falling.

The Quakers abolishing slavery in GB is a great example. The politicians were the last ones on board, dragging their feet the entire way, because they were the ones benefiting from status-quo. The Quakers changed the minds of the masses, and the politicians could either run out in front of the parade or loose all credibility. That's why governments have worked to control media, movies, commercials, schools, etc. It's brainwashing and mind control that we are freeing people from with this message. The truth only needs to be applied once, but the lies must constantly be reapplied. We have already won. The question is, how long to they plan to keep fighting?

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So you wouldn't consider yourself who thinks of political action as immoral?  Judging someone you think you are working together with as immoral is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think we have to work together, i.e. coordinate, but there can be synergies created from that kind of collaboration. I look at political activism  on a case by case basis. I like Ron Paul because he's honest about the government. He calls it outright theft, admits that it's immoral to steal, and then has an open and honest conversation with people about where we go from here.

Ian wanted the city to acknowledge that the propert taxes were paid under duress at the threat of stealing his home. The City Manager refused to even admit it, saying "I don't know about that", then called his private mercenaries in to have us removed from his office. (because having armed men forcibly remove people that ask difficult questions makes him more accountable you see) I think that is unacceptable; it's being dishonest with himself and the people paying his salary.

I'm not into judging people, I accept them for who they are, and realize they are doing what they think is best. I can only be that little voice in their ear posing questions.

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A nice goal... but quite hard to achieve.  And I think impossible without those of us working within the system to make changes.

Easier? yes. Impossible? No. Using the system to eliminate the system, now that's much closer to impossible.

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Would you trust a doctor who committed crimes to provide your health care, with him as a slave?

Not really what I meant. I was simply pointing out that treating everyone the same under a punitive system fails to realize the unique gifts and talents that we all have as individuals. I think a system that worked to help people discover their gifts and put them into practice, would go a long way towards reforming the individual.

Well it's been fun. I need to get back to work. If you have further questions/discussion, I'm on FTL Tuesdays, your welcome to call in and discuss. Thanks for the civil discussion all!

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Ed

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #277 on: July 11, 2010, 05:01:13 pm »

@Stoker

OK, so because of that, you're against the government having the power to imprison people altogether? That doesn't seem to rationally follow. That's like saying "because I might crash, I'm never going to drive a car".

The bad parts of the laws can be repealed (and frankly they just don't work the way you're describing). And what are we supposed to do about serious criminals like rapists or murderers or fraudsters if we can't use force in retaliation (centralized state or anarcho-capitalist voluntary-membership state)?
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Ed

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #278 on: July 11, 2010, 05:05:15 pm »

I fail to see what oatmeal has to do with abolishing slavery.
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Stoker

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #279 on: July 11, 2010, 05:17:49 pm »

I fail to see what oatmeal has to do with abolishing slavery.
A) again - What? I seriously can't understand the way you write
I think my posts are quite legible. If you "can't understand the way I write" and you think that I wrote about a connection between "Oatmeal and Slavery" I don't think there is any point wasting my typing skills re-typing what you obviously cannot understand.
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seamas

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #280 on: July 11, 2010, 07:15:50 pm »

I can't resist again pointing out the difference between a goal or philosophical/moral stance and tactics.  Unless I'm missing something, by your definition (and mine) an anarchist is one who aspires to live in a place without government.  I fail to see how an anarchist who sees gaining political office as the best way of achieving anarchy is not an anarchist.  Such a person may be mistaken in their efforts but that's a dispute over strategy/tactics rather the person's aspiration.  So politician and anarchist are not mutually exclusive in the way that you believe; unless you conflate goals with tactics.

Furthermore, if an anarchist truly insists on living in a place with no government most people will point out that there are places like Somalia, the interior of the Congo, or the interior of the Amazon to move to.  Life under actually existing anarchy (as opposed to pie in the sky theorizing) ain't so sweet.  The parallel between actually existing anarchy and actually existing Communism is informative because both philosophies are morally seductive but ignorant of human nature.

Finally, having read the ridiculously doctrinaire comments of some anarchists on this thread; to paraphrase the Dead Kennedys, "In real anarchy, you would be the first to go."

My post wasn't meant to "nitpick" about semantics or to label anyone. Sensible debate requires using the correct terminology. I said nothing about any personal political stance (or yours for that matter) whatsoever.

an·ar·chy
   /ˈænərki/
–noun
1. a state of society without government or law.
2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control.
3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.

Anarchy is an absolute condition, like Dead and Pregnant. Just as you can't be "a little dead" or "a little pregnant", you can not have a"little bit of anarchy". You CAN however have "a little bit of politics", "a small amount of government", or, "a limited amount of law". The term "Political Anarchy" contradicts itself, resulting in the condition coined by Orwell as "DoubleThink", i.e. believing that something both exists and does not exist at the same time . The "War is Peace" message from Big Brother is  a good example of DoubleThink  from Orwells' 1984.

A Politician is someone who runs for an elected office. Therefore the person you cited as having successfully ran for an elected office on the "Fuck Politics" platform is another example of a contradictory term. If you run for office you are a  Politician, regardless of your stance on "Politics". If I run for Sheriff on a "Fuck the Police" platform and win, am I not a Policeman?

Words are all we have to work with in Discussion and Debate, and using the correct terms matters.






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Stoker

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #281 on: July 11, 2010, 08:24:18 pm »

I fail to see how an anarchist who sees gaining political office as the best way of achieving anarchy is not an anarchist.  Such a person may be mistaken in their efforts but that's a dispute over strategy/tactics rather the person's aspiration.  So politician and anarchist are not mutually exclusive in the way that you believe; unless you conflate goals with tactics.

Furthermore, if an anarchist truly insists on living in a place with no government most people will point out that there are places like Somalia, the interior of the Congo, or the interior of the Amazon to move to.  Life under actually existing anarchy (as opposed to pie in the sky theorizing) ain't so sweet.  The parallel between actually existing anarchy and actually existing Communism is informative because both philosophies are morally seductive but ignorant of human nature.

Finally, having read the ridiculously doctrinaire comments of some anarchists on this thread; to paraphrase the Dead Kennedys, "In real anarchy, you would be the first to go."


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I fail to see how an anarchist who sees gaining political office as the best way of achieving anarchy is not an anarchist.
I don't "fail to see" this at all. Does "Fighting for Peace" make you a Pacifist? NO. It makes you a FIGHTER, regardless of what the intended goal is. I mentioned something about people who have anarchist ideologies running for elected office in a different post than the one your currently trying to nitpick about. Get your nitpicking straight for gods sake!

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if an anarchist truly insists on living in a place with no government most people will point out that there are places like Somalia, the interior of the Congo, or the interior of the Amazon to move to.

These places are NOT in a state of Anarchy, they are in a state of Chaos and are all under the control of a variety of quasi-Governmental entities ranging from "Warlords" to "Tribes" to Families". I pointed out in another post in this thread that true anarchy can only exist in a community of one. Once there is a group of people, it is human nature that either one of the members will assert dominance over the rest, or, the group will defer leadership to somebody (or a sub-group) whether he wants this position or not. By the way- just to clarify this AGAIN, I am not an Anarchist, I am simply pointing out inconsistencies and contradictions in peoples' statements and assumptions about Anarchy in this forum.
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"Hagrid"

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #282 on: July 11, 2010, 08:38:19 pm »

Well it's been fun. I need to get back to work. If you have further questions/discussion, I'm on FTL Tuesdays, your welcome to call in and discuss. Thanks for the civil discussion all!

Ditto.  thanks for the discussion.

John Edward Mercier

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #283 on: July 11, 2010, 09:43:24 pm »

Anarchy has a chaotic state to it.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #284 on: July 12, 2010, 12:10:35 am »

Nicely said, Sam.  It's amusing to see people talking trash about Keene activism who don't live in these parts.
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