Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 ... 24   Go Down

Author Topic: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP  (Read 79432 times)

SamIam

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #255 on: July 10, 2010, 10:21:22 pm »

Victorian Britain was far freer than the US ever was, perhaps the freest industrial society in history, and slavery and mercantilism were abolished through the legislative process there. Hong Kong. Switzerland. New Zealand's reforms in the 80s were great - although they've backslidden some. The Isle of Man, Cayman Islands, & many other micro-states and quasi-states are extremely low-tax jurisdictions. Drug tolerance happened peacefully in the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Portugal.

Sorry Jason, this is BULL-SHIT! Slavery was abolished by Quakers who reached out to the masses. They talked about the horrors of slavery; they organized boycotts; they popularized "free trade" for sugar; they showed people the products used to trade for human beings; they built a model of a slave ship so people could see the 4ft high decks slaves were crammed into; They shared stories of slaves jumping off the ship to drown out of fear; they got former slaves to give first hand accounts.

It was the politicians who were resistant to change, because many of them were absentee plantation owners and investors in shipping companies who were benefiting (so they believed) from the slave trade. It was the quakers who educated the people, expanded their perspective and changed the culture in a way that shamed the politicians into doing the right thing.

That is what freed the slaves. Long term change comes about by elevating people's understanding of the world around them.

Id suggest Bury the Chains:
http://www.amazon.com/Bury-Chains-Prophets-Rebels-Empires/dp/0618104690


Yep. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

So "Freedom is not Free?" Is indifference the only thing I'm not free to have in your "free" society where government is running things? Sorry, I don't buy that.

We've had incredible success with the 420 celebrations, including a huge feature in Cannabis Culture as well as DRCNet coverage and more.
That is not liberty it is publicity.
[...] Publicity means more movers to Keene, meaning more activism, meaning more liberty down the line.

Sorry, this "plan" sounds awfully like a pyramid scheme to me.

Perhaps even a bit uncomfortably close to other Utopian schemes...
"We will have peace... after all nations are committed to a program of universal socialism."

Pyramid Scheme? Denis, come on! More people means larger events, more locals hearing our views, more people understanding and choosing freedom. The state exists because most people believe in and fund it. Change peoples beliefs about the world around them, and it will change the world. Reality is simply a reflection of our collective beliefs about reality.
Logged

rossby

  • Director of Development
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4801
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #256 on: July 10, 2010, 11:26:47 pm »

Are there any FSP participants who are also active C4L members?
Apples and Oranges

Moving to NH and voting once will be more effective than years of C4L meetings and holding signs every Saturday.

C4L is pretty much a useless money sink. Ironic...
Logged

artienewport

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 164
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #257 on: July 11, 2010, 12:02:10 am »

Are there any FSP participants who are also active C4L members?
Apples and Oranges

Moving to NH and voting once will be more effective than years of C4L meetings and holding signs every Saturday.

C4L is pretty much a useless money sink. Ironic...

I get exercise by tearing up their junk mail.
Logged

"Hagrid"

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1657
  • We don't need 20K... we just need you to move now.
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #258 on: July 11, 2010, 01:57:09 am »

Fair enough Seth.  Of course the exact same thing can be said of any political victory as well.  In CA, they won the right to get gay married, then that was taken away.  Wherever cannabis has had advancement in the govt's laws, there is always a push to bring back prohibition.  Look at Los Angeles banning hundreds of dispensaries.

Exactly, changing the laws is treating the symptoms of the disease - people's belief that government can effectively solve problems. While treating the symptoms can relieve suffering, it's correcting the root of the problem that will cure the patient.

I'll contend that the current state of 420s (to be fair and only address Ian's own topic), is FAR from either 'cure' or 'symptom treating', it neither stops them from bothering you (the police can at any time, if they haven't), nor does it educates the people, it merely shows that 'they' (the powers that be) tolerate it until they won't.

Quote
On the scale of 1-10, where Jen's bill is a clear 9 or 10 for creating more liberty for 1.2+ million people in the State, from Westmoreland to Berlin, where would you like to self-rate your 4:20 victory?

I eagerly await hearing this answer.

I think the knife repeal is a great step forward. My question, how many people now understand why government regulating knives is an ineffective approach?

But it's NOT ineffective, it was one more tool in their arsenal, another in a long list of laws everyone violated without knowing they were doing it, so that they were outlaws by default.  Some want it that way.
If you meant that the laws were ineffective, you entirely missed the reason they were still on the books.  Nobody expected them to arrest scottish highlanders for their dirks... but they could have, if they'd wanted to.

Quote
Seth the moving the big rock analogy simply flies in the face of reality. One horror story of a guy attacking school children with a machete is all it would take to "move the big rock", again because political solutions mostly treat the symptoms in a knee jerk - run out in front of the parade - political response, rather than cure the disease.

A guy who attacks school children with a machete won't easily cause them to succeed in getting a machete ban, because he's _already_ breaking the law, and if we have some elected officials who are skittish enough to try and ban machetes, that is because folks like you and me are letting those skittish folks run things rather than doing our part in bringing sanity to the system.  You see insanity, and think it's impossible to make sane, so kill the patient.  I see insanity and want to treat it, because the patient is far from dying.

In fact, given that rumors are that some in Keene are considering banning toplessness, despite that it's already legal here in NH, you are the ones playing with machetes and are going to only prove how easy it is to _let_ skittish folks run things into the ground.
You, being against government, see that as a validation of your beliefs.  I see that as proof some of your activism is backfiring and causing _less_ liberty...


JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5723
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #259 on: July 11, 2010, 06:55:13 am »

Victorian Britain was far freer than the US ever was, perhaps the freest industrial society in history, and slavery and mercantilism were abolished through the legislative process there. Hong Kong. Switzerland. New Zealand's reforms in the 80s were great - although they've backslidden some. The Isle of Man, Cayman Islands, & many other micro-states and quasi-states are extremely low-tax jurisdictions. Drug tolerance happened peacefully in the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Portugal.

Sorry Jason, this is BULL-SHIT! Slavery was abolished by Quakers who reached out to the masses. They talked about the horrors of slavery; they organized boycotts; they popularized "free trade" for sugar; they showed people the products used to trade for human beings; they built a model of a slave ship so people could see the 4ft high decks slaves were crammed into; They shared stories of slaves jumping off the ship to drown out of fear; they got former slaves to give first hand accounts.

It was the politicians who were resistant to change, because many of them were absentee plantation owners and investors in shipping companies who were benefiting (so they believed) from the slave trade. It was the quakers who educated the people, expanded their perspective and changed the culture in a way that shamed the politicians into doing the right thing.

That is what freed the slaves. Long term change comes about by elevating people's understanding of the world around them.

That's a good example of how education & political action can go hand in hand. You need both.

Quote
Yep. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

So "Freedom is not Free?" Is indifference the only thing I'm not free to have in your "free" society where government is running things? Sorry, I don't buy that.

Huh?
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

FreeStyle

  • Guest
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #260 on: July 11, 2010, 07:56:21 am »

glad to see that most of what Sam said can't be argued against very well.
Logged

artienewport

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 164
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #261 on: July 11, 2010, 08:43:07 am »

Fair enough Seth.  Of course the exact same thing can be said of any political victory as well.  In CA, they won the right to get gay married, then that was taken away.  Wherever cannabis has had advancement in the govt's laws, there is always a push to bring back prohibition.  Look at Los Angeles banning hundreds of dispensaries.

Exactly, changing the laws is treating the symptoms of the disease - people's belief that government can effectively solve problems. While treating the symptoms can relieve suffering, it's correcting the root of the problem that will cure the patient.

I'll contend that the current state of 420s (to be fair and only address Ian's own topic), is FAR from either 'cure' or 'symptom treating', it neither stops them from bothering you (the police can at any time, if they haven't), nor does it educates the people, it merely shows that 'they' (the powers that be) tolerate it until they won't.

They tolerate it because it's bad publicity and lots of protesting on the part of Free Keener's for the police department if they enforce the law.

I guess you think that's SOOOO BAD OMG though. Maybe you could have gotten the same effect working 10 years within the system. Maybe.
Logged

Stoker

  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #262 on: July 11, 2010, 08:48:48 am »


 Slavery was abolished by Quakers who reached out to the masses. They talked about the horrors of slavery; they organized boycotts; they popularized "free trade" for sugar; they showed people the products used to trade for human beings; they built a model of a slave ship so people could see the 4ft high decks slaves were crammed into; They shared stories of slaves jumping off the ship to drown out of fear; they got former slaves to give first hand accounts.

It was the politicians who were resistant to change, because many of them were absentee plantation owners and investors in shipping companies who were benefiting (so they believed) from the slave trade. It was the quakers who educated the people, expanded their perspective and changed the culture in a way that shamed the politicians into doing the right thing.

That is what freed the slaves. Long term change comes about by elevating people's understanding of the world around them.

Id suggest Bury the Chains:
http://www.amazon.com/Bury-Chains-Prophets-Rebels-Empires/dp/0618104690


Yep. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

So "Freedom is not Free?" Is indifference the only thing I'm not free to have in your "free" society where government is running things? Sorry, I don't buy that.


And unfortunately, after the Quakers set up a relatively free society, it was replaced with one of institutionalized tyranny *with window dressing and lots of fancy wording to make the masses believe otherwise.

Contrary to what is crammed down every US citizens throat in the indoctrination and conformity factories (mislabeled as "schools"), Slavery was NOT "abolished" in America, it has always been here. The 13th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America actually officially legalizes slavery and sets about the exact terms of its' implementation, exactly the opposite of what most Americans honestly believe:

Amendment 13

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

What this Amendment does is to remove the right to enslave from the individual, and firmly makes it part of the Governments toolkit. Slavery is Slavery whether an individual or a group does it (even if it's for a "good" reason), saying it was ABOLISHED is a complete lie. Slavery is illegal *EXCEPT, it is not. They beat Orwell to the punch with some fancy DoubleThink. ;)

This Amendment (along with all the others and the Constitution itself) is intentionally misleading and ambiguous. That which is wanted to be believed (the opposite of the actual legal meaning) is introduced as a negative : "Neither slaver NOR involuntary servitude" This is a common Con strategy, and is employed in nearly all ballot proposals today. It is a fact that many (most?) voters actually choose the opposite of what they desire when selecting ballot proposals because of this type of Con strategy.

From a legal standpoint the 13th amendment reads thus:

Slavery and involuntary servitude shall exist in the United States and any place under Congress' jurisdiction (* Now officially defined as EVERYWHERE on Earth in the "patriot act")and shall be  enforced solely  by Congress by appropriate legislation (what is appropriate is also defined by themselves) as a punishment for  a "crime" (* and what is a crime is also defined by Congress) whereof the party shall have been duly convicted (* The "patriot act" officially decrees that this is no longer necessary)

Boiled down even further removing doublespeak and including the "updates" in the powers of Congress and the entire Government in recent years it reads thus:

"Slavery and involuntary servitude shall exist everywhere on Earth, including in the United States, and and shall be  enforced  by Congress or the President, as a punishment by decreeing that someone has committed a crime."
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 10:26:28 am by Stoker »
Logged

creaganlios

  • Guest
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #263 on: July 11, 2010, 10:15:59 am »

I htink you're being extreme, silly, and marginalizing yourself...it reminds me of the Hal Lindsay disciples of the 80s who KNEW based on specific words and phrases that the End Was Imminent.

I would take your arguement and turn it on its head:  That amendment specifically opens the way for Bondservice to replace Incarceration as a fit response to conviction for a crime, and from that perspective, advances liberty.
Logged

Stoker

  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #264 on: July 11, 2010, 10:30:40 am »

I htink you're being extreme, silly,

This is exactly what the Government wants you to think, and is the primary reason they can do any fucking thing they please and tell you that the opposite of what they are doing is true.

Have another Sugar Coated Dogturd, the Government says it is a Candybar! MMMM! Tasty! Can I have another PLEASE!?!?
Logged

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5723
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #265 on: July 11, 2010, 10:37:29 am »

Bondservice as restitution makes sense to me. Also, consider the victims of a truly serious crime such as rape or murder. The victims of these crimes are not just the people against whom violence was actually committed, but virtually all local residents, who fear that such things might happen to them & therefore have to take precautions. So for building and repairing roads & other public duties, I see no reason why we shouldn't make serious criminals pay restitution to all their victims by assisting productively.
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Ed

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 728
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #266 on: July 11, 2010, 10:40:25 am »

yeah... - all you're saying is that the government legally has the right to imprison people and put them to work if they commit a crime. That, by itself, doesn't really scare me, or most other people.
Logged

"Hagrid"

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1657
  • We don't need 20K... we just need you to move now.
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #267 on: July 11, 2010, 10:50:59 am »

They tolerate it because it's bad publicity and lots of protesting on the part of Free Keener's for the police department if they enforce the law.

I guess you think that's SOOOO BAD OMG though. Maybe you could have gotten the same effect working 10 years within the system. Maybe.

No, I see that as a bandaid over the wound, which can ripped off, not a cure...  And whether you care to admit it or not, Matt's near singlehanded political activism in a scant 2-3 years has made huge strides in legalizing MJ. (Props to all who have helped him especially the folks who do grunt work that goes unnoticed, there are some, and I don't want to ignore them, but I also know that he's certainly not saturated with volunteers and would welcome more)  If half of the folks who went to 420s were helping within the system these past 2-3 years, it might already be legal, for everyone, not unenforced in a Central Square in Keene.  Broken windows, dude.  You have no idea what your actions might have cost the community, since you chose to take the actions you did.

SamIam

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #268 on: July 11, 2010, 12:04:41 pm »

I'll contend that the current state of 420s (to be fair and only address Ian's own topic), is FAR from either 'cure' or 'symptom treating', it neither stops them from bothering you (the police can at any time, if they haven't), nor does it educates the people, it merely shows that 'they' (the powers that be) tolerate it until they won't.

I agree, the 420's are several magnitudes less effective than they were initially. However, we were out with about 10 people, when two middle aged people wandered up. They were on vacation from MA, and couldn't believe what they stumbled upon. While they may not reach the masses, you never know the difference one person can make.

What the 420's did show that I don't see you acknowledging, is in large numbers, the police/government will have no choice but to back down. Mass CD works.


But it's NOT ineffective, it was one more tool in their arsenal, another in a long list of laws everyone violated without knowing they were doing it, so that they were outlaws by default.  Some want it that way.
If you meant that the laws were ineffective, you entirely missed the reason they were still on the books.  Nobody expected them to arrest scottish highlanders for their dirks... but they could have, if they'd wanted to.

I completely agree.


A guy who attacks school children with a machete won't easily cause them to succeed in getting a machete ban, because he's _already_ breaking the law, and if we have some elected officials who are skittish enough to try and ban machetes, that is because folks like you and me are letting those skittish folks run things rather than doing our part in bringing sanity to the system.  You see insanity, and think it's impossible to make sane, so kill the patient.  I see insanity and want to treat it, because the patient is far from dying.

In fact, given that rumors are that some in Keene are considering banning toplessness, despite that it's already legal here in NH, you are the ones playing with machetes and are going to only prove how easy it is to _let_ skittish folks run things into the ground.
You, being against government, see that as a validation of your beliefs.  I see that as proof some of your activism is backfiring and causing _less_ liberty...

I'm saying the way to bring about lasting change is to expand peoples understanding. Changing the law alone treats the symptom, leaving the patient ignorant of his or her unhealthy life choices.

Without people understanding why knife freedom is a good idea, I think ti runs the risk of backfiring. In the event of a tragedy involving knives, the politicians will jump on it to say, See! Freedom doesn't work! Then they use the crisis to impose even greater restrictions.

There will always be busy bodies who want to run around screaming the sky is falling because of x. I'm focusing on the masses in order to educate them by first getting them to question their paradigm.

That's a good example of how education & political action can go hand in hand. You need both.

I have always believed the varying approaches working together will have a much greater impact than any single method alone. That's why I moved to NH.

Yep. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Quote
So "Freedom is not Free?" Is indifference the only thing I'm not free to have in your "free" society where government is running things? Sorry, I don't buy that.

Huh?

"The price of Freedom" - Freedom costs something according to that quote. In order to have freedom, I must pay something (eternal vigilance), which means I can't be indifferent to their system of government. So Freedom is not free, as I hear from so many statists, and under their system, they are right. Without people constantly fighting for freedom, the control freaks in government will continue to abuse the power people grant them. The ultimate solution is to eliminate "the system" that requires eternal vigilance, and choose something that allows true freedom. Hopefully that makes sense.

On the having criminals fix the roads, that doesn't take into account the individuals abilities and resources. What if a guy who owns a road construction company committed a crime. Would you have him do manual labor over donating his road repair entity's service in honor of his victim? Restitution over punitive punishment is the ultimate answer.





Logged

Stoker

  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
Re: PorcFest 2010 raises reservations about joining the FSP
« Reply #269 on: July 11, 2010, 12:23:26 pm »

Bondservice as restitution makes sense to me. Also, consider the victims of a truly serious crime such as rape or murder. The victims of these crimes are not just the people against whom violence was actually committed, but virtually all local residents, who fear that such things might happen to them & therefore have to take precautions. So for building and repairing roads & other public duties, I see no reason why we shouldn't make serious criminals pay restitution to all their victims by assisting productively.

yeah... - all you're saying is that the government legally has the right to imprison people and put them to work if they commit a crime. That, by itself, doesn't really scare me, or most other people.

I am not saying anything- the Government is, I was clarifying the intentional ambiguity and misleading nature of this law written by them.

So you think it is perfectly ok for the Government to enslave you for committing a "crime"??? Oh how the Hypocrisy Cup do runneth over!!

Here are some examples for you to "put in your pipe and smoke":

 Possession of Marijuana is classified by Federal Law as a FELONY ,(The most serious of crimes) and conviction thereof allows the United States Government to ENSLAVE you, forcing you to do such things as break rocks with a fucking sledgehammer to construct roads.

The President can label ANYONE on the planet(Including of course US citizens, this means YOU) a "Terrorist", obviously an atrocious crime, without having ANY proof, requiring a trial, or even charging you. If he decrees that you are a Terrorist, you are GUILTY, and obviously then eligible to be enslaved to break rocks for roads in your "FreeState", in between your "legal" TORTURE sessions.

There are currently Bills before Congress that will make posting in THIS FORUM a CRIME.They are even considering making "Anti-Government" writing a crime RETROACTIVELY! Better get fitted for your striped pajamas and Ankle Ball right now....

The 13th Amendment states that you can be enslaved for ANY crime, not just a serious one (even if it did- THEY would decide what is "serious"). Do you think your Mother or Sister or YOU should be enslaved for Jaywalking, parking violations or tearing the tags off of your mattress!?!? Maybe you should be sent to whatever country it is that we are attacking this week and put you all to work clearing Landmines!(Also perfectly "legal" according to this law of which you so glowingly approve)

What a bunch of Freedom oriented folks you are!! I don't think I want to live in YOUR "FreeState ". Old Sherrif Joe here in AZ looks like fucking Ghandi compared to what you two approve of.

P.S. A bit of Synchronicity: I just turned on the Tube and what is on?  Cool Hand Luke.........
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 01:18:30 pm by Stoker »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 ... 24   Go Up