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Eddie_Bradford

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Re:newbie
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2002, 01:28:43 pm »

Hello and welcome Scoobie!  I'm glad to see you here.  The FSP dosen't have any official possition on things but in general most here are Libertarians and some are anarcho-capitalists.  I will try to explain how I think most people feel about the issues you brought up, but always keep in mind that I don't speak for anyone else but me and my impressions.  Also there will probably be many people that dissagree with you on some of your issues but don't let that bother you we all dissagree about stuff all the time just remeber that you're welcome and your opinions are important even if you decide you don't want to join or whatever.  IMO the basic principal of Libertarianism is that Freedom more important than any other aspect of forming a society, and too that end we try to make sure everyone has a maximum amount of freedom.


high everyone!!!  i've been reading about this group and it seems like something i want to be part of.  a little about myself, i'm a graduate student in upstate ny -- i don't want to be too specific, never know who is listening  ;D ;D.  i guess i am a desciple of noam chomsky and peter singer.
i simply groove on the idea of making our own little country, where common sense prevails.  
i still haven't found a true point by point platform for you guys.  could someone just answer my queries.
1)  obviously i am for legalization, i've worked with some medhemp folks and have travelled to amsterdam a couple of times.  how far do you want to go; are we talking natural substances or the whole enchilada.  i cannot not see why not make H legal.  it's my body!


Almost all people here think there should be no laws whatsoever about what you do with your body under any circumstance with any other consenting adults as long as it doesn't harm others.

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2) i hope your state protects a woman's right to choose, anytime.  hopefully you have read dr singer's work on this topic.


Although a lot of people are against this on a personal level not most think that the government shouldn't get involved period.

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3) continuing the dr. singer tact, i also hope euthanasia is allowed.  the old and infirm are nothing more than leeches on our hard working society.  i really think a modified "logan's run" would benefit all

answer same as #1
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4) i also hope that your country will have no christian references, i mean NONE!  i have meet michael newdow, he's a great man.  we will need new money, in god we trust is offensive to the majority of the world.  i think organized religion leads to nothing but misery; look at all the problems in the world.  as an atheist, i don't want the radical right to tell me how to live, who to sleep with, what to injest, and so on.

Our government will be small enough that there won't be a religous issue, but in the small government we will have it will not treat a religion any different than any other organization
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5) i am also concered about the greedy corporate culture.  how would your country address that?  would free enterprise be allowed, or maybe just cottage industries.  i want clean air and clean water, i hope your crack down on polluters.

Government wouldn't do anything, people would.  When a company pollutes your air or water on your property then you can take them to court and they will be required to fix whatever they did and pay restitution.  As for greedy corporate cultures this is a non issue.  By requiring indepented audits and the IRS reviewing tax reports the Fed government has given investors a false sense of security.  In reality the indepent auditors were not independent and were paid by the company.  This illusion that a company is financially healthy when it really isn't wouldn't happen in a Free State because before a lending institution would give a company any money they would do an extensive investigation into its financial health.  If they found accounting that was murkey it probably wouldn't invest.  This would require a company to be extremely clear and up front about it's balance statement.  If the bank finds out the company lied they can be taken to court for fraud.
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6) one reason i want to leave amerika is that stupid second amendment.  our society is violent, repressive, racist, and unfair.  might does not make right.  guns empower those to bully around those who do not have guns.

Here you will find just about eveyone dissagrees with this.
I guess my question to you is what do you propose is better?  Should we have armed police searching every building for guns until we find them all and destroy them?  Do you want the only people who have guns to be the police?  This is a very scary 1984 scenario for us Libertarians.  We want more than anything to end the government's complete power over us and by getting rid of all guns except for those weilded by the government is crazy.  I personally don't own a gun and I've never even fired one.  I've held one once, but even if you think an armed population is bad then you must agree that the opposite is worse where only criminals and the government can have guns.  Plus following the logical extension we should ban all weapons.  Meaning we take away all knifes and all other weapons and then chain our hands behind our back so people won't get in fist fights.  The point is that at some point we must trust people to use their judgement and if they commit a crime with a gun then maybe we'll make it so they can never have one again.  But if you and your friends want to build a society in our state that has no guns then that's fine.  You could buy a large plot of land and live on it and make a community where no guns are allowed you could certainly do that.  Also if you like socialistic programs like social security, unemployment ins. etc. you guys could make your own society and quasi government to provide those services to your members.

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7) would this country have an army??? :-X i hope not.  american foreign policy has been strong armed and imperical.  i am ashamed of our military and especially the rich, silver spoon, boys who run it.

My Answer is the same as Reaper's except that you could make common cause with the anarcho-capitalists who want no military whatsoever (no gov't either for that matter).

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8) i have mentioned your site to friends of mine who practice alternative lifestyles.  i think they'd be interested if you are tolerent and accepting of them.  

well i think this is a good start.  hope to hear from someone  :-*

scoobie

We'd love to have them here and we are certainly tolerant of them.  Just remember these things which you might not like about the libertarians.  Very little to No government services ergo very little to no taxes.  No government regulations of any kind.  Of course a company can't lie to you that would be fraud and you could take them to court.  Regulation does much more harm than good... well actually not any good at all usually.  You will be protected from the greedy corporations by the fact that they can't violate anyone's rights.  So they can't pollute other people's property etc.  Finally if you want to live a more communistic lifestyle you can form a commune with others who want to do the same.  The main thing we reject about communism/socialism is that it is maditory and so it forces people to participate in it and we HATE it when people use force.
-Eddie
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mikegags

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Re:newbie
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2002, 01:30:04 pm »


I have no illusions regarding the sainthood of the USA yesterday or today.  I would like to see a better USA, and I am willing to work towards that goal, even make some sacrifices for it.  But please understand, my initial goal is to improve that country which I am a patriot to, not destroy it.  

I have no problem dropping the word usage issue. You're finding meaning in statements I did not intend. Alas that is a side effect of this interface. All emphasis and inflection is lost.

I am just trying to determine why you and many others are here. You say you are a patriot for the USA in its current form. This movement is about attempting to change much of that country (if its not then I shouldn't be here). So from your statement it would seem you might be actually against the FSP.

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"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will.  But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."

Thomas Jefferson

mikegags

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Re:newbie
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2002, 01:58:40 pm »


Hi Mike, and welcome to the circus!  ;D

Glad you liked the test - it's a useful tool that also helps me clarify things in my own mind when I can't decide about an issue.

Regarding the discrimination issue, I can only speak for myself (don't I always?? :) ) :

- Would (or rather, *should*) private organizations be free to discriminate on things like race, gender, and religion? Yes.
- Would I belong to an organization that did so? Hell no. I'd also encourage boycotting and other non-violent methods of dissuasion.

I think freedom of association is not used nearly enough. While I loathe Jesse Jackson, the man is certainly a master of it. Just *hints* of a boycott have caused companies to bow to blackmail-like demands.  

(I don't consider it actual blackmail because he's not using force, just freedom of association. Obviously the companies consider his influence over the market to be more valuable than whatever they give up in exchange. Of course, he'd probably be a lot less successful if he couldn't threaten discrimination lawsuits at the drop of a hat.)




That's all I needed to hear.

Sign me up!
Oh, I'm already signed up. 8)

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"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will.  But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."

Thomas Jefferson

Joey

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Re:newbie
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2002, 02:49:11 pm »


I'll just go ahead and speak for the other Christian-minded folks, but if you all intend to have a "country" without religion or God, then what's the difference between your state and the country now?

Will someone please tell me where most of our laws even came from?

A TON of them are from the Bible. So to have some athiest say "well as long as there isn't any religion" is asking for trouble in my opinion.

Yeah, many have different faiths and views. But it is God who is above all things - man, material, etc.


If the FSP advocates a Godless society, in which we have now, then I don't want any part of it.


Sorry, but that's just how I am. I understand the need for more individual freedoms, but I can attest to you that there IS a God - and if you don't do things that he doesn't agree with, you're in for a big surprise.

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fubar

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Re:newbie
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2002, 02:50:04 pm »

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You're finding meaning in statements I did not intend. Alas that is a side effect of this interface. All emphasis and inflection is lost.


I'm not taking any of this personal (well, not so much that it will keep me awake at night  ;)  ).  I've never been very good at this forum stuff, so thanks for making my excuses for me  ;D  (I'm hoping the smileys help...).

Anyway, as to your concerns:  
1.  I completely reject the need to secede from the USA today.  If that means I don't belong in FSP, then so be it.  

2.  I love my country in an emotional way.  Due to aesthetic beauty, common culture, historical struggles, pride in achievements, family and friends, etc.  This, however, does not justify my Patriotism.

3.  My Patriotism is justified by my rational belief that the USA engenders more liberty, throughout the world, to those individuals seeking such liberty, then any other form of existing government.  

4.  That amount of liberty, being engendered by the USA, can be improved.  I would like to be a participant in any movement that has a worldwide effect of engendering more liberty to liberty minded peoples.  

5.  If I think FSP will establish a presence in any State and manipulate the Feds to a position of engendering more liberty, I'm obsessed with FSP.  

6.  If I think FSP will immediately challenge the Feds into a no-win position, I will bow out (no need to be asked).  Armed conflict within the USA will result in less liberty being secured here and worldwide.

7.  If it makes you feel better, I CAN imagine circumstances where I would support succession from the USA.  And, IF the time comes, you will not be disappointed by my ability to willingly contribute in a valuable way to such a cause.  

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This movement is about attempting to change much of that country


I hope my above notes show that I too would like to see change in this country.  Maybe you can show me where I inferred that the USA was perfect and not deserving of a kick in the butt?  My pet peeve is current interpretations of the Commerce Clause of the Constitution.  Very bizarre and completely contrary to the original intent of the Founders.  A very big challenge to liberty minded people and a challenge to my current state of patriotism, for sure.
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mikegags

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Re:newbie
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2002, 03:41:33 pm »


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You're finding meaning in statements I did not intend. Alas that is a side effect of this interface. All emphasis and inflection is lost.


I'm not taking any of this personal (well, not so much that it will keep me awake at night  ;)  ).  I've never been very good at this forum stuff, so thanks for making my excuses for me  ;D  (I'm hoping the smileys help...).

Anyway, as to your concerns:  
1.  I completely reject the need to secede from the USA today.  If that means I don't belong in FSP, then so be it.  

2.  I love my country in an emotional way.  Due to aesthetic beauty, common culture, historical struggles, pride in achievements, family and friends, etc.  This, however, does not justify my Patriotism.

3.  My Patriotism is justified by my rational belief that the USA engenders more liberty, throughout the world, to those individuals seeking such liberty, then any other form of existing government.  

4.  That amount of liberty, being engendered by the USA, can be improved.  I would like to be a participant in any movement that has a worldwide effect of engendering more liberty to liberty minded peoples.  

5.  If I think FSP will establish a presence in any State and manipulate the Feds to a position of engendering more liberty, I'm obsessed with FSP.  

6.  If I think FSP will immediately challenge the Feds into a no-win position, I will bow out (no need to be asked).  Armed conflict within the USA will result in less liberty being secured here and worldwide.

7.  If it makes you feel better, I CAN imagine circumstances where I would support succession from the USA.  And, IF the time comes, you will not be disappointed by my ability to willingly contribute in a valuable way to such a cause.  

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This movement is about attempting to change much of that country


I hope my above notes show that I too would like to see change in this country.  Maybe you can show me where I inferred that the USA was perfect and not deserving of a kick in the butt?  My pet peeve is current interpretations of the Commerce Clause of the Constitution.  Very bizarre and completely contrary to the original intent of the Founders.  A very big challenge to liberty minded people and a challenge to my current state of patriotism, for sure.

My concerns are not directed only at you, I didn't mean to put you on the spot; I have the same concerns for many of the posters I see in this forum. I want to know what kind of freedom people want to establish. I fear that some (yourself excluded) don't really understand all the responsibility that goes with living in a free society. Not to mention the sacrifices that might be necessary to build one.

As for your items I agree with all of them except #1. The US is the best country in the world, no argument. I happen to not care about the rest of the world though. The US is half the country it used to be when it comes to politics, corruption, liberty (etc). It is corrupt and a bully. Its is unconstitutional. It no longer attracts the best and brightest, it attracts the laziest and those looking for a hand out. I do not and can not love it in its current state. Would I fight to defend it - you better believe it. As long as the possibility exists that we can get back what has been taken it is worth saving.

If anyone wants to try to change that with a top-down approach (i.e. improvements), that's not what I'm here for. You obviously have more patience than I do. I also don't think it will work.

Yes, #6 is a bad idea. If this ever leads to an armed situation its all over.

I would hope that through true politicking and negotiation we can get what we want - eventually. It is my belief that secession will be necessary, only because the courts will never rule in our favor. Hopefully they just leave us alone. I expect some sanctions though. I assume since the whole world will be watching they won't walk in and - "ooops did you see that!!! The Seabrook Nuclear Plant melted down. All of those poor libertarians, ohhh, what a tragedy...the horror..."

As for #7, excellent.

I look forward to actual conversation with you and many others at some meeting in the future.
"You take the high road, I'll take the low road..."

latah
mike

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"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will.  But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."

Thomas Jefferson

Reaper

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Re:newbie
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2002, 03:58:26 pm »

I'll just go ahead and speak for the other Christian-minded folks, but if you all intend to have a "country" without religion or God, then what's the difference between your state and the country now?


You really shouldn't presume to speak for others.  Some "christian-minded folk" have no need to a theocracy.

There is quite a bit of difference actually, more than I can list here but just off the top of my head:

1) Freedom of association in personal and business matters.
2) Ending government regulation of industries and peoples lives.
3) Freedom to do what you will so long as you do not harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.
4) Less taxes.
5) Personal resposibility for ones actions.
6) No welfare state or government enforced wealth redistribution of any kind.

The list goes on and on and on . . .

Will someone please tell me where most of our laws even came from?  A TON of them are from the Bible. So to have some athiest say "well as long as there isn't any religion" is asking for trouble in my opinion. Yeah, many have different faiths and views. But it is God who is above all things - man, material, etc.  


Well, your entitled to your opinion, they are entitled to their opinion and I'm entitled to mine.  So what?  We all have the right to our own beliefs, so long as we dont try to FORCE them on others there's no problem.  That is a big part of liberty isn't it?

If the FSP advocates a Godless society, in which we have now, then I don't want any part of it.  Sorry, but that's just how I am. I understand the need for more individual freedoms, but I can attest to you that there IS a God - and if you don't do things that he doesn't agree with, you're in for a big surprise.


The FSP does not advocate a "godless society" nor a "godfull (heh, new word?) society".  We do not believe that government should take ANY position on religion.  Individuals, groups and organizations are free to believe as they wish and act accordingly, provided they do not interfere with the equal rights of others to do the same.


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Reaper
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mikegags

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Re:newbie
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2002, 04:08:09 pm »



I'll just go ahead and speak for the other Christian-minded folks, but if you all intend to have a "country" without religion or God, then what's the difference between your state and the country now?

Will someone please tell me where most of our laws even came from?

A TON of them are from the Bible. So to have some athiest say "well as long as there isn't any religion" is asking for trouble in my opinion.

Yeah, many have different faiths and views. But it is God who is above all things - man, material, etc.


If the FSP advocates a Godless society, in which we have now, then I don't want any part of it.


Sorry, but that's just how I am. I understand the need for more individual freedoms, but I can attest to you that there IS a God - and if you don't do things that he doesn't agree with, you're in for a big surprise.



I agree 100%. Without religions any free state is just an immoral jungle.

I do not claim to be extremely religious, but I do know God handed down a very simple list of 10 laws that no one seems to argue over, unlike our own Constitution with its 7 articles and the first 10 amendmends that well, amazingly, no one seems to agree on what they meant!

A free state isn't just a place for homosexuals to come to get married or for people to do drugs. That's not what it's all about. Its about the freedom for people to use the free-will God gave them.

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. We must always be responsible for ourselves and respectful of others. That's my minimum requirement for living in a free society.

The F.F. didn't have a whole lot in common other than their love for freedom and their love of God. Go read "John Adams". Things got real ugly right after the war. But for the most part they worked it out with compromises. I would think that to start from scratch like that would be nearly impossible these days. Everyone has their own agenda, and unlike back then, most people now believe its the role of govt to address their agenda.

I truly hope none of those people think the FSP is for them.
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"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will.  But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."

Thomas Jefferson

Reaper

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Re:newbie
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2002, 04:59:45 pm »

I agree 100%. Without religions any free state is just an immoral jungle.


Religion is not a prerequisite of morality.  Most mass atrocities in history have been comitted in the name of one religion, or one god or another.  Some of the US founders were christians, some were deists and some were atheists.

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine --

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of [hu]mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamaties that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams --

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison --

"If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? . . . Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God." --Thomas Jefferson--

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." - George Washington, 1796 -

I do not claim to be extremely religious, but I do know God handed down a very simple list of 10 laws that no one seems to argue over, unlike our own Constitution with its 7 articles and the first 10 amendmends that well, amazingly, no one seems to agree on what they meant!


Really?  That's not true at all.  There is much disagreement and ignorance about what the "10 commandments" really meant, and who they applied to.  Do you know how many sets of "10 commandments" there actually were according to the bible?  Do you know they were not the same 10?  Perhaps you should read the text.

A free state isn't just a place for homosexuals to come to get married or for people to do drugs. That's not what it's all about. Its about the freedom for people to use the free-will God gave them.

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. We must always be responsible for ourselves and respectful of others. That's my minimum requirement for living in a free society.


Indeed but freedom is about being free to make YOUR OWN choices, right or wrong, and to take responsibility for the consequences.  It's not about being free to live by some ancient fairy tale code that others want you to follow.

The F.F. didn't have a whole lot in common other than their love for freedom and their love of God. Go read "John Adams". Things got real ugly right after the war. But for the most part they worked it out with compromises. I would think that to start from scratch like that would be nearly impossible these days. Everyone has their own agenda, and unlike back then, most people now believe its the role of govt to address their agenda.  


"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson -

So, TJ says the agenda of goverment, if I may paraphrase, is protecting individuals from harm by others, regardless of their religious beliefs.  Sounds reasonable to me.

The FSP is NOT about establishing a christian theocracy or in any way establishing a "christian state/nation".
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Re:newbie
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2002, 05:32:55 pm »

I agree 100%. Without religions any free state is just an immoral jungle.


Religion is not a prerequisite of morality.  Most mass atrocities in history have been comitted in the name of one religion, or one god or another.  Some of the US founders were christians, some were deists and some were atheists.

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine --

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of [hu]mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamaties that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams --

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison --

"If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? . . . Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God." --Thomas Jefferson--

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." - George Washington, 1796 -

You are absolutely correct. That didn't come out at all like I intended! I stepped in a big pile this time.

I am only concerned that some may think of this free state as some sort of party state. Religious values, in general, tend to provide a good example of how people in a society should behave. I should have said that example is not limited to Religions.
I do not claim to be extremely religious, but I do know God handed down a very simple list of 10 laws that no one seems to argue over, unlike our own Constitution with its 7 articles and the first 10 amendmends that well, amazingly, no one seems to agree on what they meant!

Quote

Really?  That's not true at all.  There is much disagreement and ignorance about what the "10 commandments" really meant, and who they applied to.  Do you know how many sets of "10 commandments" there actually were according to the bible?  Do you know they were not the same 10?  Perhaps you should read the text.

Like I said, I don't claim to be a bible scholar, only a couple of years in Catholic HS. My point though, was to suggest Religions as a model to follow when determining what is a law and what isn't, and leaving little open to interpretation (and therefore abuse).
A free state isn't just a place for homosexuals to come to get married or for people to do drugs. That's not what it's all about. Its about the freedom for people to use the free-will God gave them.

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. We must always be responsible for ourselves and respectful of others. That's my minimum requirement for living in a free society.

Quote

Indeed but freedom is about being free to make YOUR OWN choices, right or wrong, and to take responsibility for the consequences.  It's not about being free to live by some ancient fairy tale code that others want you to follow.

I agree. I didn't mean to imply there would be a state religion. (Obviously I need to re-read my posts a little better)
The F.F. didn't have a whole lot in common other than their love for freedom and their love of God. Go read "John Adams". Things got real ugly right after the war. But for the most part they worked it out with compromises. I would think that to start from scratch like that would be nearly impossible these days. Everyone has their own agenda, and unlike back then, most people now believe its the role of govt to address their agenda.  

Quote

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson -

So, TJ says the agenda of goverment, if I may paraphrase, is protecting individuals from harm by others, regardless of their religious beliefs.  Sounds reasonable to me.

The FSP is NOT about establishing a christian theocracy or in any way establishing a "christian state/nation".

Most definitely yes.
You must think I'm off my rocker. This was a very bad post. I agree with most everything you say. Obviously I need to work on my presentation skills. I knew exactly what I meant!
I knew I should have kept my posts limited to political and constitutional issues! ::)
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"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will.  But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."

Thomas Jefferson

maestro

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Re:newbie
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2002, 06:12:15 pm »



I'll just go ahead and speak for the other Christian-minded folks, but if you all intend to have a "country" without religion or God, then what's the difference between your state and the country now?

Will someone please tell me where most of our laws even came from?

A TON of them are from the Bible. So to have some athiest say "well as long as there isn't any religion" is asking for trouble in my opinion.

Yeah, many have different faiths and views. But it is God who is above all things - man, material, etc.

If the FSP advocates a Godless society, in which we have now, then I don't want any part of it.

Sorry, but that's just how I am. I understand the need for more individual freedoms, but I can attest to you that there IS a God - and if you don't do things that he doesn't agree with, you're in for a big surprise.


As one of the Christians on the board, _I_ will ask you not to try to speak for all of us.  

FSP advocates a "God"-less _government_ in the literal sense.  No god or set of gods will define the government.  If they want to endorse us, great, but FSP will not create laws establishing or favoring any particular religion.  :)

As to the original poster's thoughts about "under god" being offensive, that's something that we can discuss separately, perhaps in the religion part of the forums.

FSP's "new" state will not ever be godless in the Christian sense as long as it includes Christians who are living in a Christian manner.  It will also never become a theocracy as long as I can still raise a fist.

No law should ever be passed that does not have a grounding in logic, derived from the axiomatic principles of the sanctity of life, liberty, and property.  These axioms are supported by the Bible in many ways, but are also supported by several other religions, philosophies, and dogmas, and as such are not based on any one religion but rather upon a general consensus of human thought.
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Elizabeth

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Re:newbie
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2002, 08:39:35 pm »

Joey, I truly believe your concerns about the FSP being "godless" are unfounded -- if by "godless" you mean "anti-God."  

While the FSP is not a christian project (or based on any other religion) we firmly believe that every person is entitled to pratice his or her religion to his or her heart's content (with the caveat, of course, that you can't interfere with someone else's right to worship or not, as they so choose).  

Many of the conflicts today between Christians and the government would be resolved in the Free State, because they are caused by government involvement in areas they shouldn't be in.  For example -- prayer in schools would be totally at the discretion of the school, since all schools would be private.  Employers and landlords would be allowed to employ or rent to anyone they wanted, and enforce rules of prayer, cohabitation, or whatever they wanted for their business or property.  Charities would be free to operate as they please, as all charities would be private and subject to only their own rules.

As for people who lose it over something trivial like money saying "in god we trust," you have to accept that in this world there are people who have pet issues, and some of them have as their pet issue the eradication of all religion everywhere.  You can't run in the opposite direction, you just have to ignore them.  Your faith means one thing to you -- and you have to have faith in your faith, if you know what I mean.  Let other people stew in their own craziness.
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Daniel Vaughn

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Re:newbie
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2002, 12:04:36 am »

I’ve been following the various FSP message boards since the early yahoo days and am beginning to see a pattern (although it has become more apparent since the inception of this board).  First a Christian interested in the FSP who likes what he’s read on the web site begins to post messages.  As People begin to respond he soon realizes that all involved in the FSP do not necessarily share his same religious view point.  To make matters worse, some are even Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, and dare I say it, even Atheists (Gasp Gasp).  Now he panics, and writes something like this:



I'll just go ahead and speak for the other Christian-minded folks, but if you all intend to have a "country" without religion or God, then what's the difference between your state and the country now?

Will someone please tell me where most of our laws even came from?

A TON of them are from the Bible. So to have some athiest say "well as long as there isn't any religion" is asking for trouble in my opinion.

Yeah, many have different faiths and views. But it is God who is above all things - man, material, etc.


If the FSP advocates a Godless society, in which we have now, then I don't want any part of it.


Sorry, but that's just how I am. I understand the need for more individual freedoms, but I can attest to you that there IS a God - and if you don't do things that he doesn't agree with, you're in for a big surprise.




The sad part is that I think all here (possibly) including you Joey can all agree on one point.  That we all have the right to be left alone, and to live our lives however we see fit.  Wouldn’t this make us all on the same side?

“I'll just go ahead and speak for the other Christian-minded folks, but if you all intend to have a "country" without religion or God, then what's the difference between your state and the country now?”

Reaper already addressed this but I must add, our country (if we decide to form one) will not be without religion or god; it will simply be non religious.

“Yeah, many have different faiths and views. But it is God who is above all things - man, material, etc.”

Well I have to disagree with you on this point, I think man is already a primitive god, and we just keep getting better with time.  The sooner we can ditch the 95+% of the world who are noting but a bunch of violent barbarians, the sooner we can evolve to full fledged God status.  I don’t want a government who trusts in god, or acknowledges his existence, I’ll trust in the intelligence of mankind (at least some of them).  I won’t give God credit for one damn thing, everything we have to day, both good and bad (and most is good) is the result of man’s work, man’s intelligence and man’s suffering.

I know Christians like you like to think you’re a poor, picked on minority; (and I’m some evil “Christian basher”) but the bottom line is that saying you’re a Christian is about the most politically correct thing you can do.  Imagine if the President, a member of his cabinet, or a member of congress proclaimed he was an Atheist.  Now that takes balls.  This county is probably 80% + Christian, saying you’re a Christian gets you nearly 100% acceptance 100% of the time.  America was an experimental, non religious society, and it worked fine until our government was taken over by fundamentalist hyper Christians trying to make sure everything was fair, no one was falling into sin, and the rest of the world was converting to Christianity at gun point.  

Believe it or not I don’t hate Christians, I don’t hate anybody actually.  It seems like there are some good Christians here involved in the FSP, hell Jason Sorens is one.  But don’t always be so judgmental of me or anybody else here because you just realized that probably better than half the people on this board are atheists.  It gives the good Christians on this board a bad name; something there already trying to recover from.

I don’t want to be an Atheist, I don’t think any of us do.  At best I can expect 60 more years of life, and then that’s it.  Id rater believe something warm and fuzzy, but unlike some I was never able to develop the ability to override my capacity for logical thinking, no matter how much I would some times like to.  At fifteen years old I began to study most of the worlds major religions (even reading the entire Bible, something few Christians can clame) and before I did that, I told my self that this was a search for the truth, not what sounded best.  Although I wish god did exist and I didn’t have to refer to myself as an Atheist, all in all I’m glad he doesn’t, because just think what a sick god that would have to be.

“but I can attest to you that there IS a God - and if you don't do things that he doesn't agree with, you're in for a big surprise.”

Okedookey
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fubar

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Re:newbie
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2002, 10:44:35 am »

Quote
"You take the high road, I'll take the low road..."


Oh, kinda like the carrot and stick thing.  Cool.   ;)

See ya around Mikegag.

ttfn
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Mega Joule

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Re:newbie
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2002, 01:32:44 am »

Quote
Quote from: Megadeth

First a Christian interested in the FSP who likes what he’s read on the web site begins to post messages.  As People begin to respond he soon realizes that all involved in the FSP do not necessarily share his same religious view point.  To make matters worse, some are even Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, and dare I say it, even Atheists (Gasp Gasp).  



How dare you say it.  What do think this is, a free-loving, personal-responsibility based, organization that favors each person doing as they deem appropriate so long as they harm no one?  Oh yea, I guess that IS what we are attempting here.

Quote

I'll just go ahead and speak for the other Christian-minded folks, but if you all intend to have a "country" without religion or God, then what's the difference between your state and the country now?


That’s generally not a very good thing to do around here.  We are some of the most opinionated individuals you will ever meet, and most here don’t take well to people speaking for them.  Try to understand who we are.  We are a group of “not-so-like-minded individuals seeking, not to change one another, but to join together (complete with our differences up front) for a common cause.  That cause being to establish a free state and work at compelling the federal government into returning the freedoms it has stolen from individuals and states,  and resuming  its rightful place in our constitutionally based government.

Quote

Will someone please tell me where most of our laws even came from?

A TON of them are from the Bible. So to have some athiest say "well as long as there isn't any religion" is asking for trouble in my opinion.


I hate to burst your bubble, but most of these “biblical” laws to which you refer actually pre-date the bible.  They existed as Mosaic Law, (Moses’ ten commandments) long before the bible was written.  They existed in Talmudic Law, Buddha’s teachings (approximately 500 years BC), and Hammurabi’s code of law (1750 BC). Not to mention that many of our laws actually originate from English common law and have no link to Christianity or the bible whatsoever.  

Quote

But it is God who is above all things - man, material, etc.


In your opinion, but many people would disagree with you.  I do not think you are proposing a state religion, which would FORCE everyone to practice your religion.  That said, there is room for you to be Christian, for Megadeth to be an Atheists, and for me to be whatever I choose to be.  

Quote

If the FSP advocates a Godless society, in which we have now, then I don't want any part of it.

Sorry, but that's just how I am. I understand the need for more individual freedoms, but I can attest to you that there IS a God - and if you don't do things that he doesn't agree with, you're in for a big surprise.


That is, at best, an unsophisticated argument.  God said, I believe, that’s it.  Fine!  However, what you believe does not set the standards of living for all Homo sapiens.  Many cultures throughout the course of human history have developed codes of conduct in the form of religion, to bring order and civility to their people.  Christianity is but one of them and by no means does it hold a monopoly on morality.

And BTW, I rarely do things that God would approve of, (tried it and it didn’t work), but he has not rained down fire and brimstone on me yet.  

Quote

America was an experimental, non religious society, and it worked fine until our government was taken over by fundamentalist hyper Christians trying to make sure everything was fair, no one was falling into sin, and the rest of the world was converting to Christianity at gun point.  


Any time one group, be it Christians or Fundamentalist Muslims or tax-collecting-bureaucrats, seeks to impose their particular agenda on unwilling others, by force or coercion, freedom suffers.  When freedom suffers, we all lose.

Quote

Believe it or not I don’t hate Christians, I don’t hate anybody actually.  It seems like there are some good Christians here involved in the FSP, hell Jason Sorens is one.  But don’t always be so judgmental of me or anybody else here because you just realized that probably better than half the people on this board are atheists.  It gives the good Christians on this board a bad name; something there already trying to recover from.


If one is a Christian they have to love me.  I know, I was once a Christian.  You do not have to like me, approve of me, or agree with me, but you are commanded to love thy neighbor as thy self.  I’m not asking you to hang out with me, only that you let me live my life, my way and I will do the same for you.  It is all about tolerance.  

Quote

I don’t want to be an Atheist, I don’t think any of us do.  At best I can expect 60 more years of life, and then that’s it.  Id rater believe something warm and fuzzy, but unlike some I was never able to develop the ability to override my capacity for logical thinking, no matter how much I would some times like to.  At fifteen years old I began to study most of the worlds major religions (even reading the entire Bible, something few Christians can clame) and before I did that, I told my self that this was a search for the truth, not what sounded best.  Although I wish god did exist and I didn’t have to refer to myself as an Atheist, all in all I’m glad he doesn’t, because just think what a sick god that would have to be.


Take comfort my friend.  You are not alone.  I too have studied many religions and have even tried out several for myself.  I was a Christian for several years, (Southern Baptist,  Assembly of God, Nazarene, Non-denominational, even Mormon) and the thing that always disturbed my was that I could always come up with logical inconsistencies that even the most learned theologians could not explain.  I have read and studied the bible cover to cover multiple times so I do not speak from a lack of experience nor a lack of bible knowledge myself.  I do not call myself Atheist, yet I am not of any particular religious slant.  I like Buddhist teachings because they are practical and logical.  I fall short of “being” Buddhist in that, while I love Siddartha’s basic teachings, I often disagree with the legalist, dogmatic, rules that have been infused into the Buddhist religion.  

I personally believe that ALL religion is the construct of the human need/desire to explain life, the universe, and everything.   I also believe that there is good and bad in every religion, but that it helps many people to have a prescribed system or code of conduct by which to model their lives.  If this helps them to be better people than it is a good thing.  If it causes them to harm others (such as wars and terrorism) or to force their beliefs on others (as in causing laws to restrict the rights of other to be enforced by the government) I believe it steps beyond its rightful place.


I am a woman of science and in this I place my faith.  I think religion complicates life too much.  I generally just apply Ockham's Razor.

Meg
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"One essential of a free government is that it rest wholly on voluntary support.  And one certain proof that a goverment is not free, is that it coerces more or less persons to support it, against their will."  (Lysander Spooner, 1867)
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