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Better Pro Liberty Culture

New Hampshire
- 19 (95%)
Wyoming
- 1 (5%)

Total Members Voted: 19


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Author Topic: Want to Move, Need To Decide  (Read 4799 times)

SonOfLiberty

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Want to Move, Need To Decide
« on: April 19, 2010, 08:58:02 am »

Hello!

I've followed the FSP for a while now but never actually took up the reins and told my family "OK, it's time to move".  Recent political events, in a relative sense, have finally pushed me over the brink and now I'm looking at locations to move my family to that are libertarian in nature (big or little "L" not important) where we have a chance to live in freedom AND have a real voice in the political process.  We're hoping for a state that takes a stand, is open to secession or at least rejects Federal laws without fear, and that will not supinely accept Federal tyranny nor impose its own tyranny in the foreseeable future (knowing there are no guarantees of course).

The decision is down to two places for us - New Hampshire and Wyoming.  I've put out some feelers in the FSW forum, and am doing so here as well.

We're looking for probably what most of you were looking for - a place to live which maximizes individual liberty not through *default* but rather due to an active culture of liberty.  In other words, yes I could probably be pretty damned free living in the middle of the woods in Ohio, assuming I don't make any noise, but that's default, not cultural.  New Hampshire and Wyoming on the other hand both seem to be populated on average with very independent liberty minded folks in the classical liberal sense.

We're looking for low taxes to no taxes, tolerant culture (we're not social conservatives, but we're also not dyed in the wool "hippies", so we're looking for tolerance from *all* people), good gun laws (if I can reasonably open carry without permits and having a SWAT team show up that would be great), a culture that sees anti-government dissent as normal (or at least acceptable) and not deranged, and probably a whole host of other things that would classify me as a libertarian under any definition. 

As far as non-political concerns, we'd love a place with decent weather, where we could reasonably open a business or be self employed and, with talent and normal market conditions, raise a family on the proceeds.  We're avid gardeners, so growing things is a must.  We also would love to acquire a decent amount of *livable* property without breaking the bank (no idea what the land costs are in either state, as real estate sites seem to be geared towards pushing the high end stuff, at least in Wyoming).

We currently live in central Ohio.  The culture shock would be less for us than it would be to somebody moving out of New Jersey or California, but still one nonetheless I'd assume.  We currently live in an upper middle class subdivision (subdivision - yuck) used to pleasant mostly "B" type personalities that don't mind talking to strangers, normally happy people, lots of farm land around us (ergo great soil for growing things), temperate climes with somewhat colder snowy winters and hotter humid summers and really rainy springs.  Open carry is frowned on here (why? No idea) but we do have an otherwise pretty large gun culture (full auto family oriented shooting ranges everywhere, advertise on the radio/television/newspapers all the time, even subdued suburbanites generally have guns, etc), so NH and WY both would give us that one added boost we've been looking for, open carry.  The taxes here stink on ice, but it's been so long since I've lived in another state that I have no real comparisons any longer to see if that's normal or not.  The county we live in is still "old school" and the schools still teach American history and the Constitution as positive things (including stating that the BOR are all individual rights, etc).

My wife is a registered nurse, RN, and I'm a senior level lead developer, our children get very good grades in school and are quite active in sports and arts.  We'd love to hear about school districts out there, both private and public, as well as extracurricular activities such as sports (is lacrosse big in NH?).

And last, and this may be a stretch, outside of geographical/weather issues, are there any differences that would make NH a more viable choice than WY if somebody was open to either possibility equally?  Strange question, I know, probably self answering after looking at the responses to the rest of the post.  :)
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Dreepa

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2010, 09:37:17 am »





We're looking for low taxes to no taxes, tolerant culture (we're not social conservatives, but we're also not dyed in the wool "hippies", so we're looking for tolerance from *all* people), good gun laws (if I can reasonably open carry without permits and having a SWAT team show up that would be great), a culture that sees anti-government dissent as normal (or at least acceptable) and not deranged, and probably a whole host of other things that would classify me as a libertarian under any definition. 



Welcome to the FORUM!

NH has no income tax.
NH has no general sales tax.

NH has open carry laws.
NH has a shall issue (14 days) $10 no fingerprints no social....just a form at the local pd.
NH has one of the smallest governments in the US.

As far as non-political concerns, we'd love a place with decent weather, where we could reasonably open a business or be self employed and, with talent and normal market conditions, raise a family on the proceeds.  We're avid gardeners, so growing things is a must.  We also would love to acquire a decent amount of *livable* property without breaking the bank (no idea what the land costs are in either state, as real estate sites seem to be geared towards pushing the high end stuff, at least in Wyoming).
all depends on where you are looking.

Check out Grafton county.

We currently live in central Ohio.  The culture shock would be less for us than it would be to somebody moving out of New Jersey or California, but still one nonetheless I'd assume.  We currently live in an upper middle class subdivision (subdivision - yuck) used to pleasant mostly "B" type personalities that don't mind talking to strangers, normally happy people, lots of farm land around us (ergo great soil for growing things), temperate climes with somewhat colder snowy winters and hotter humid summers and really rainy springs.  Open carry is frowned on here (why? No idea) but we do have an otherwise pretty large gun culture (full auto family oriented shooting ranges everywhere, advertise on the radio/television/newspapers all the time, even subdued suburbanites generally have guns, etc), so NH and WY both would give us that one added boost we've been looking for, open carry.  The taxes here stink on ice, but it's been so long since I've lived in another state that I have no real comparisons any longer to see if that's normal or not.  The county we live in is still "old school" and the schools still teach American history and the Constitution as positive things (including stating that the BOR are all individual rights, etc).

I think you will find areas that you like in NH.......and 'stubborn yankees' who will think like you do.


My wife is a registered nurse, RN, and I'm a senior level lead developer, our children get very good grades in school and are quite active in sports and arts.  We'd love to hear about school districts out there, both private and public, as well as extracurricular activities such as sports (is lacrosse big in NH?).

There are nursing jobs in NH.
Dartmouth, Lebanon, Concord, Manchester, Portsmouth, Nashua.
There are some good school districts (though property taxes tend to be higher there)
Lacrosse is 'big' in NH.. not huge but big.

And last, and this may be a stretch, outside of geographical/weather issues, are there any differences that would make NH a more viable choice than WY if somebody was open to either possibility equally?  Strange question, I know, probably self answering after looking at the responses to the rest of the post.  :)

Not to diss WY  (I like WY).. but being able to get to beach, mountains and 'big cities' all about an hour from NH is pretty cool.  Also because the state is small you can get to lots of pro liberty events pretty easily. 
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SonOfLiberty

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2010, 10:00:12 am »

Thanks for the reply Dreepa!

Good information to start with, thanks, I'll start the search in Grafton county per your advise.

Not sure what "stubborn yankee" is, though I can probably guess.  The concept of "yankee" doesn't really register with a midwesterner mindset, and it isn't tossed around a lot in conversation.

The 14 day shall issue, that's for CCW right?  Open carry is still no permit I'm assuming?  Do you see any real open carry in real life with any frequency or is it just something that's on the books and happens only occasionally in your experience?

Great to hear about lacrosse.  My son, 7th grade, plays defense for the middle school we live near and is quite good and enjoys it a lot, the coach routinely places him on the field with the 8th graders (big honor for a 7th grader), and also interested in football and skeet/trap shooting.

My wife's big concerns are the same concerns I hear from most women when the man wants to up and move; "Will I be moving out into the middle of nowhere, are there things to do, this isn't a third world country atmosphere is it, jobs would be nice, will there be actual live human beings within a ten mile radius, is property reasonably priced, etc".  The notion of being an hour from anything sounds like a real selling point, Wyoming is rather sparse socially.

Also, question, if I say I want a pop will anybody besides fellow expatriated Ohioans know what I mean?   ;D
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 10:19:06 am by SonOfLiberty »
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djbridgeland

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2010, 10:33:43 am »

We're hoping for a state that takes a stand, is open to secession or at least rejects Federal laws without fear, and that will not supinely accept Federal tyranny nor impose its own tyranny in the foreseeable future (knowing there are no guarantees of course).

Well NH has said no to the feds on mandatory seatbelt laws repeatably, motorcycle head and eye protection, and mandatory auto insurance just to name a few,  Marijuana decrim passed the house recently, and Medical Marijuana passed both the house and senate only to be vetoed by the governor last year.  Open carry is unlicensed and happens fairly regularly mostly among the proliberty crowd.   You might have an uneducated cop stop you, or an out of state visitor from the likes of Massachusetts or New York call the cops on you, who has to check up on it but thats pretty much it. New Hampshire has one of the best economies on the east coast and as I have seen seems to already be recovering after entering the recession early last year. New Hampshire is mostly small town rural meaning you have neighbors but they are not right on top of you( an average lot is several acres).   
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Dreepa

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2010, 10:38:17 am »

Thanks for the reply Dreepa!

Good information to start with, thanks, I'll start the search in Grafton county per your advise.

Not sure what "stubborn yankee" is, though I can probably guess.  The concept of "yankee" doesn't really register with a midwesterner mindset, and it isn't tossed around a lot in conversation.

The 14 day shall issue, that's for CCW right?  Open carry is still no permit I'm assuming?  Do you see any real open carry in real life with any frequency or is it just something that's on the books and happens only occasionally in your experience?

stubborn yankee are the 'old timers' here in NH.
They are fiscal conservative and 'mind your own' business types.

I see open carry probably at least once a week.  Whenever FSPers gather there are ALWAYS open carriers.
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SonOfLiberty

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2010, 10:41:15 am »

Well NH has said no to the feds on mandatory seatbelt laws repeatably, motorcycle head and eye protection, and mandatory auto insurance just to name a few, 

Motorcycles here in Ohio don't require helmets either, I think we're one of "the three" with NH on that count.  This is good, because I ride a motorcycle. The other two you have us whooped though.

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Marijuana decrim passed the house recently, and Medical Marijuana passed both the house and senate only to be vetoed by the governor last year. 

That sounds promising, because it means only having to remove one dilbert from the governor's seat as opposed to having to change an entire mindset for the entire state.  Good news.

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Open carry is unlicensed and happens fairly regularly mostly among the proliberty crowd.   You might have an uneducated cop stop you, or an out of state visitor from the likes of Massachusetts or New York call the cops on you, who has to check up on it but thats pretty much it.

More good news.  Combined with a shall-issue CCW, that's a really good thing.  What recourse is there against an uneducated cop?  Are they belligerent or do they actually check if you inform them to?  Cops here tend to be rather scary at the local levels, they've responded with a couple of swat teams to a guy in central Columbus who had art on his lawn.  I mean, what?

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New Hampshire has one of the best economies on the east coast and as I have seen seems to already be recovering after entering the recession early last year. New Hampshire is mostly small town rural meaning you have neighbors but they are not right on top of you( an average lot is several acres).   

Sounds ideal!  Most places here are rural and the rural mindset is pretty well accepted as the norm.  Several acres lot size (or more) is what I'm looking for.  Heck, if farming conditions are good I'd love to buy 40 to 80 acres and start some kind of organic produce farming (or something similar).  This is assuming that there is decent arable land to be had at good prices.

Thanks for the info.
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SonOfLiberty

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2010, 10:50:29 am »

stubborn yankee are the 'old timers' here in NH.
They are fiscal conservative and 'mind your own' business types.

Ah, ok, I see, ty.  I suspect that I came across as a bit white bread conservative, so I see the pointer now.  We're libertarians, I was the secretary of the state party way back a brazillian years ago.  Surprisingly, Ohio has a very libertarian attitude towards female toplessness (no laws against it) and we're cool with that (well, I am, heh), see it in the summertime many years. If they legalized marijuana, that'd be cool too (though I do not partake).  If the old timers are 'live and let live' on social issues as well as economic, that's golden!  We're just looking for toleration from all parties, not just some.  Righties tend to look down their nose at anything different, lefties tend to look down their nose at anything normal.  We're just prone to live and let live.

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I see open carry probably at least once a week.  Whenever FSPers gather there are ALWAYS open carriers.

Righteous.  My 1911 (well, technically 1991A1 Series 80) needs some daylight public exposure, in my opinion.  I can hear some Rugers and S&W six shooters in the safe jumping up and down yelling "me too me too" as well.  :)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 10:53:41 am by SonOfLiberty »
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sj

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2010, 11:00:37 am »

More good news.  Combined with a shall-issue CCW, that's a really good thing.  What recourse is there against an uneducated cop?  Are they belligerent or do they actually check if you inform them to?  Cops here tend to be rather scary at the local levels, they've responded with a couple of swat teams to a guy in central Columbus who had art on his lawn.  I mean, what?

It varies, but when I moved to NH, there was a noticable difference in the way the police interact with people.  In NH, there are more peace officers, though there are still the ones with a chip on their shoulder.  It varies a lot by town.

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My wife's big concerns are the same concerns I hear from most women when the man wants to up and move; "Will I be moving out into the middle of nowhere, are there things to do, this isn't a third world country atmosphere is it, jobs would be nice, will there be actual live human beings within a ten mile radius, is property reasonably priced, etc".  The notion of being an hour from anything sounds like a real selling point, Wyoming is rather sparse socially.

That's one of the things I really like about NH.  My wife and I just spent last Saturday at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, which is only an hour away.  Lots of cultural stuff to do, and it's not far from the "middle of nowhere."

In addition, NH's economy is much more diverse.  WY's economy mostly revolves around the energy sector, but NH's economy is more diverse and very healthy (the unemployment rate in NH is way below the national average).  However, it's much easier to find a job in person than remotely in NH.

Weather?  The winter is a bit longer in NH than in Ohio, but it's not as harsh as Wyoming's is.  NH's beaches are very nice too.

Regarding a comparison with Wyoming, let me post a few links for you.

New Hampshire is the Freest State (Wyoming ranks 15)

NH has better gun laws than Wyoming (and many people are working hard to improve them; NH will soon be only the 2nd state to decriminalize switchblades).

NH Has lower taxes than Wyoming

NH has the highest "freedom IQ"


I grew up in SW Pennsylvania so I'll know what you mean if you say "pop." :) (see here)

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We're just looking for toleration from all parties, not just some.

NH is a very tolerant state, more so than most anyway.  As mentioned earlier, Marijuana decrim recently passed the House.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 11:05:51 am by sj »
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sj

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2010, 11:06:48 am »

Oh, and don't forget to check out this link: http://freestateproject.org/101Reasons
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Floridian

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2010, 11:12:51 am »

NH has better proximity.  

If you want to be closer to other people, places, employment opportunities, education, culture, entertainment, transportation linkages, infrastructure, etc, then  NH beats WY.  If you want to get away from all of that, WY may be a better choice.  
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BigJoe

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2010, 11:13:55 am »

If you were moving from Long Island, Upstate New York, or Maryland then there might be something to say as to a concern about the level of play in lacrosse.  I would imagine it would only be a slight downgrade from OH to NH.

Lax Power's top ranked OH high schools (2009)
21.  Worthington KIlbourne
42. Western Reserve
44.  Upper Arlington
61. Thomas Worthington
72. Dublin Jerome
78  Hudson
104.  St. X
235. St. Igancious

Lax Power's  top ranked NH high schools (2009)
28. Brewster Academy (26K)
69. Hanover (public)
83. Pinkerton Academy (public/private)
85. Bishop Guertin (11K)
100. Phillips Exeter  ($29k)
112. Kimball Union Academy (26K)
173. Bow (public)
205. Proctor Academy (28K)
213. The Holderness School (25K)
229. Exeter HS (public)


then I checked another site for 2010 rankings at it had Jerome as number 8 in the country and Bishop Guertin in Nashua as 14 in the country.

Deefield Academy in MA has year in year out one of the best teams in the country, currently ranked 3rd. But it has a 30K tuition.


And I would imagine that lacrosse is practically non-existent in WY
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 11:16:44 am by BigJoe »
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freedomroad

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2010, 11:24:14 am »

We're looking for probably what most of you were looking for - a place to live which maximizes individual liberty not through *default* but rather due to an active culture of liberty.

In WY, the state government relies on oil, gas and mineral taxes to provide much of the state revenue.  In NH, the state government relies on people coming to NH to buy things that are more expensive or banned on other states, tourists, and people with second houses in NH to provide much of the state revenue.  Because of these factors, both state have low taxes when compared to the average state.

There is a lot more pro liberty political activism in NH than anywhere, and the same is true for non-political activism.  Also, voters in NH small towns play a more direct role in the size and shape of the government than anywhere else in the US.  Much of the town budget is debated on and voted on by voters.  There is also a state representative in NH for about every 3333 people, so you will likely know several state reps.  The governor is voted on every 2 years in NH and shares power with a 5 member elected body called the executive council.  NH also has the first presidential primary in the nation.

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As far as non-political concerns, we'd love a place with decent weather, where we could reasonably open a business or be self employed and, with talent and normal market conditions, raise a family on the proceeds.

On average, you will find the weather better in NH and running a business will likely be a little easier, if for nothing else, the amount of people in the area is more.

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  We're avid gardeners, so growing things is a must.  We also would love to acquire a decent amount of *livable* property without breaking the bank (no idea what the land costs are in either state, as real estate sites seem to be geared towards pushing the high end stuff, at least in Wyoming).

You will find gardening anywhere from easier to a lot easier in NH but overall, land is less expensive in WY.

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My wife is a registered nurse, RN, and I'm a senior level lead developer...

Your wife could likely find some type of nursing job in just about any state.  The market for your job is likely much larger in the NH/MA area than the WY/northern CO Front Range area.

Quote
And last, and this may be a stretch, outside of geographical/weather issues, are there any differences that would make NH a more viable choice than WY if somebody was open to either possibility equally?

Your wife and kids will likely find things overall more similar in NH than WY.  If your wife is unsure about this move for example, she will likely complain less in NH.  NH has most of the stores you are used to in OH and likely a few new ones.  There are lots of lake beaches, but NH also has several beaches on the Atlantic.  Canoe and kayaking are common in NH, even if the largest cities.  Many towns are near hills that you can hike up and watch the sunset over the town at night.  Travel in general is easier in NH.  Whether you want to go to the windiest place in the Western Hemisphere or the most hiked mountain in the Western Hemisphere, NH has it.  Ski resorts are all over the place.  NASCAR, highland games, Christian music festival, country music festival or even folk music.  It's all in NH.  There is an international airport in NH and another in MA about 40 minutes from the NH border.  Boston has all of the pro sports teams and high class culture you could ever want (and more than I'm interested in).

Keep in mind that NH is the safest state, 3 years a in row and is considered the most livable state.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 12:39:42 pm by Freedomroad »
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freedomroad

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2010, 11:32:39 am »

NH is a very tolerant state, more so than most anyway.  As mentioned earlier, Marijuana decrim recently passed the House.

It passed the House twice so why not mention it two times :)

Also, about toplessness, according to the NH law, it isn't banned.  There was recently a test case in Keene, NH.  The police responded and arrested the female.  However, charges were later dropped.  One or two more test cases and all of the cop departments around the state will likely learn that there is no law against being topless outside on government property.
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SonOfLiberty

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 12:21:10 pm »

Great info on the thread thus far, thank you to everybody.

The LAX stuff is wonderful to see. Worthington tends to exchange coaches/players with our schools given our close proximity to them.

Wife will be happy to know about the jobs for nursing.  However I suspect that I won't be working in my current profession much longer, except maybe as a stop gap while getting a small business setup and then only in an independent contractor capacity.  But it's good to know the market is there (I was a bit concerned that Wyoming would give me the "hey, what's that shiny light thingy you're using son" about computers).

For high class culture, that's for the wife and to keep the kids culturally literate.  Me, personally, I could work the rest of my life as a rancher with 1000 acres and no museums and be ok.  But I don't mind culture either.

Highland games - ah, now there's a selling point for me, big one.  In a mostly German heritage part of the nation, I find being of Scottish descent puts one into minority status.   :)

Great links and info from everybody, thanks again, hard to answer all posts, so much info. 
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BigJoe

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Re: Want to Move, Need To Decide
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 12:31:48 pm »

and is considered thes the most livable state.


what does that mean?
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