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Author Topic: FSP could be great but...  (Read 21276 times)

BobW

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2003, 08:19:10 am »

Hi Onyx,

There's more to it than just the sign out front.  I belive the hotel/motel industry provides a clearer examply of the political dynamics involved, or, at least, I can explain my point of view better via the lodging industry than the shopping center indusrty.

I file these "handicapped parking" examples in the broad category "trade restraints".

I believe it was INDUSTRY who pushed the Americans With Disabilities Act into law.  

Follow the requirements to get in compliance;
-accessable parking via a construction project re the curbs and ramps
-bathrooms requiring a major project
-new and lower beds
-hallway access by wheelchair

Above is only for wheelchair bound

TDD phone systems for hearing disabled

Etc

All the above cost money for refurbishment

New construction has additional costs.

What happened to the Mom and Pop small hotel of yesteryear?  The "Bed and Breakfeast" cottage industry (pun intended and unintended) evolved as the last vestage of the small business lodging industry.

Big money runs the place.

Remember the building in NYC Mother Terresia wanted to use for her charity work?  She was proscribed because I believe the elevator was not functioning.  Her reply was that it didn't matter.  

The building was not used for charity work.

Is a theme emerging?

Isn't it interesting the problem we are discussing isn't a problem in other societies?

Have we all forgotten about =attendents= and =personal nurses (all categories)= to assist those with limited mobility?  Let's not forget drivers.

Labor is priced out of the picture.

Something is going on and like all the other things it's only about 4 layers away from discovery.

The restricted parking is a trade restriction.

BobW
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Kelton Baker

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2003, 11:33:40 am »

Well, we should strive to be "colorblind" with regards to equal rights and fairness, but denying race exists seems silly.

Personally, I don't believe that race should be a consideration in evaluating another individual, or that society should seek any sort of "balance" in terms of racial representation.


Remember the 2000 Democrat/Republican national conventions (that our tax dollars funded)?
After the Republican convention,  the talking heads came on TV and everyone commented about the "lack of diversity".  Ted Koppel said, "Yes, I saw a sea of white tonight".  Lack of racial diversity was the opening salvo for the commentators, and repeatedly mentioned was this "underlying message" that only the agenda of the white Republicans was going to be attended to.  Nevermind whatever any Republican had to say, (which wasn't much anyways), nobody could get-over the lack of diversity presented.

It turns-out that the Democrat party actually staged the politically-correct racial profile of the audience in their own convention, being as how that party is also mostly white too; so they required race to be stated on the ticket application.  The difference between racial composition in the two parties' conventions was a talking-point faxed to every media outlet by the Democrats prior to either event.  There was even consultants hired to help in ushering and seating to ensure that the proper mix would be evenly distributed for the cameras!  (Too bad they didn't think to place bodyguards for those poor straight Boy Scouts in the opening flag ceremony).




Studies of bones shows that the advent of Agriculture resulted in a huge boom in population - and a considerable decrease in individual health.
Back when only monarchs and privileged land-owners held all wealth, obesity among the masses was a rarity.  --Ah, the evils of capitalism and science!  


Quote
My Pocket PC has the intelligence of a 20-year-old Green.

So your Pocket PC crashes frequently? :)  Seriously though,  even young wide-eyed Greens with their ready acceptance of invalid arguments and zero-sum fallacies are infinitely more intelligent because of the human ability to program and re-program one's own mind.

Religious people can divide animals into two groups: those with souls (just us, coincidentally) and those without (everybody else), with those without okay to eat or use as we see fit.


My religion (mormonism) may be a notable exception to this dichotomy.  It is taught that all living things have souls, just different levels of intelligence, and gaining intelligence through life experience is part of the purpose for life.  Interesting too, that hunting for sport alone is considered  immoral and the 'Word of Wisdom' doctrine that Mormons are famous for which forbids consumption of alcohol, tobacco, and so forth also states that meat is to be eaten only "in times of winter or famine" while grains are to be eaten "only in times of excess of hunger".

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Zack Bass

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2003, 01:41:20 pm »



Studies of bones shows that the advent of Agriculture resulted in a huge boom in population - and a considerable decrease in individual health.


Back when only monarchs and privileged land-owners held all wealth, obesity among the masses was a rarity.  --Ah, the evils of capitalism and science!  


Well, actually, hunter-gatherers and fishers, even horticulturalists and pastoralists, didn't accumulate any wealth to speak of.
It was agriculture that first created the ability to be a wealthy landowner, and then the invention of the State in Egypt made huge wealth and power possible for the Ruling/Priestly classes.  Agriculture itself took quite a while to appear in the Americas, but the State appeared here very soon after it did in Egypt and China - as did the Bow&Arrow.  Ever notice how much Mayan artifacts look sorta Egyptian - and sorta Chinese?  Nothing objectively definable, I guess, but it's there.  They've even got statues with beards.

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Kelton Baker

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2003, 03:12:32 am »

...
Agriculture itself took quite a while to appear in the Americas, but the State appeared here very soon after it did in Egypt and China - as did the Bow&Arrow.  Ever notice how much Mayan artifacts look sorta Egyptian - and sorta Chinese?  Nothing objectively definable, I guess, but it's there.  They've even got statues with beards.

Interesting.  
I happen to believe that pre-Columbian transoceanic migrations  have played a role in such intriguing things.

Article from Jan., 2000 Atlantic Monthly about the unorthodox science in the field referred to as diffusionist studies :
The Diffusionists Have Landed

"You've probably heard of those crackpot theories about ancient Phoenicians or Chinese in the New World. Maybe it's time to start paying attention"

Somewhere deep in this long three-part article it briefly mentions the archaeological efforts being done by a few groups who are adherants to one of my favorite religious texts, The Book of Mormon_.



The FSP could be great but...  
Now, how about that comment that got this thread started,  saying we were not a very diverse group of people here in the FSP?
Obviously they weren't paying much attention !
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RhythmStar

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2003, 10:44:34 am »

To show how ready I am for the FSP, I will confess that almost every single time I park at a store and see the handicapped parking stalls up in the front, I imagine opening my own store called "Handicap-Haters and Wheelchair-Smashers General Grocery Store" just to revel in the irony of being required by law to put handicap parking stalls up front in my parking lot, and be required by law to provide a wheelchair ramp and "accessible" doors.  I know that sounds bigotted, but it doesn't reflect my attitute towards people with differently-abled leanings, just my attitute towards being forced to patronize customers the government tells me to, in the exact manner required by law.

It is perhaps interesting to note that, if retail establishments had paid attention to the needs of disabled citizens to begin with, then there would have been no motivation for outrage and ultimately coercive laws.   A lesson there?

In any society, if enough people are morally offended by something, it will be changed.  The only questions are how and how long.

RS
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Kelton Baker

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2003, 05:50:09 pm »


It is perhaps interesting to note that, if retail establishments had paid attention to the needs of disabled citizens to begin with, then there would have been no motivation for outrage and ultimately coercive laws.   A lesson there?

In any society, if enough people are morally offended by something, it will be changed.  The only questions are how and how long.

An excellent lesson.  This is really the heart of the matter,  irresponsibility leads to a loss of our freedoms.
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onyx_goddess

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2003, 09:34:16 pm »

Remember the rule: Responsibility is not a punishment, it is a blessing.

Irresponsibility should be followed by the natural consequence, not some state punishment.  The natural consequence for not handicap-enabling your store is that anyone who thinks that's immoral shouldn't patronize your store.  If everyone keeps patronizing your store, then that means they agree with you - so why do a few politicians propose a "feel good" law, and everyone goes along with it, when they didn't agree in the first place?
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Radar

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2003, 01:46:22 am »

Quote
Irresponsibility should be followed by the natural consequence, not some state punishment.

I couldn't agree more.  When people do irresponsible things others can see the anguish they must endure.  For instance an elderly man who didn't prepare for his own retirement is a great example to people why they should.  An uneducated person who didn't finish school and now has to flip burgers is an example of why you should study hard.  A person who is a racist, might be boycotted and go out of business and then serve as an example of one of the many reaonss why racism is bad for business.

The public is far more fair, balanced, and efficient than the government in virtually all areas.
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RidleyReport

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2003, 03:51:42 am »

One wrote:

<<I am not speaking of anyone specifically but I believe that many of the members are either extremely sexist, racist, maladjusted, angry, or all of the above.>>

Although my 10 months of experience here would indicate you are wrong, I am actually glad you think this.  I hope many statist Americans come to the same conclusion.  It will keep them out of the Free State.  

Current residents in the target states, predominately right-leaning, will see this accusation for what it is, however.
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LeopardPM

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2003, 08:51:29 pm »

Quote
Irresponsibility should be followed by the natural consequence, not some state punishment.

I couldn't agree more.  When people do irresponsible things others can see the anguish they must endure.  For instance an elderly man who didn't prepare for his own retirement is a great example to people why they should.  An uneducated person who didn't finish school and now has to flip burgers is an example of why you should study hard.  A person who is a racist, might be boycotted and go out of business and then serve as an example of one of the many reaonss why racism is bad for business.

The public is far more fair, balanced, and efficient than the government in virtually all areas.

Here, Here! Got total agreement from me... BUT, the other advantage of a truely free marketplace is that it (if large enough) can cater to many more needs of the minorities (not just racial minority, just minority anything... gay, vegetarian, Anarchistic, etc) - so, not only will there be "Black/White/Gay/Hetero/Smoking(and Non) Only bars (or whatever)" but they can all be successful in a limited way.  Sure, a 'Gay Only Deli' will have a very limited customer base, but it will probably be large enough to support a couple of these delis successfully.  It will obviously be the businesses that open up the marketplace to the widest extent possible that will enjoy the greatest success - but that doesn't mean the 'White Only' Bar will necessarily go out of business.

BTW: before I get a ton of flames about me being some sort of aryian nation guy or any other kind of racist/bigot etc - I am far from that - AND I believe in everyones right to do what they believe (as long as doesn't violate lib principles/laws) - I have no problem having the aryian nation people try to set up some kind of business that excludes whoever they choose - it affects me not at all AND it affects whoever is being excluded not at all either.  Let the market weed out our notions and ideologies based on fear and hatred, it is the BEST teacher to future generations... not some government decree that racism is bad etc...
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Zack Bass

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2003, 09:56:54 pm »


Remember the rule: Responsibility is not a punishment, it is a blessing.


Whoever said that never paid alimony.    :-\

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onyx_goddess

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2003, 10:04:03 pm »

I once had an illuminating forum conversation with a statist about affirmative action.  I was contending that the free market would wipe away racism, and it was government laws that had perpetuated it.  The statist countered that it was the other way around - Jim Crowe laws, etc had come about because they had such wide popular support by the community and the business community.

Which led me to an interesting question: Why is racism bad?

My answer is because irrationality is bad.  But that begs the question, so the question gets revised to why is irrationality bad.  So, although I'm not a complete fan of Randyism, I do think that rationality should be the basis of our society.  If we start basing things on non-objective criteria, society will deteriorate.

Racism is decidedly irrational, and therefore anathema to a rational society.
However, there is no way we should allow government to regulate irrationality.  

It is every person's right, and by extension every business's right to act in an irrational manner.  In some cases, it may appear like irrationality, but the owner could be calculating that by naming his store "Whitey Not Welcome Grocery Store" he'll get more customers.  So, it is definitely true that "racism" or "bigotry" in a business may or may not end up in some naturally negative consequence.  However, in that case, perhaps it wasn't irrational in the first place, and therefore possibly not even "wrong" at all.

I once heard that racism has never held the hearts of the people except when the government enforced it.  I'm not sure that's true, but maybe in the Free State, we'll get to see.
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LeopardPM

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2003, 10:20:26 pm »

...."Whitey Not Welcome Grocery Store"....

ROFLMAO - I love you, Onyx!  Between you and Zack, I am DEFINITELY looking forward to moving to the free state - I hope that grocery store is on my way to commute to work everyday, I would get to work with a large grin, ready to face all my free state customers.  

yours forever,
michael
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Zack Bass

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2003, 01:26:39 am »


...."Whitey Not Welcome Grocery Store"....


ROFLMAO - I love you, Onyx!  Between you and Zack, I am DEFINITELY looking forward to moving to the free state - I hope that grocery store is on my way to commute to work everyday, I would get to work with a large grin, ready to face all my free state customers.  


Back in the old days, there were ads classified for "Men" or "Women" or "White" or "Colored."  You knew not to waste your time applying for certain jobs at certain companies.
Then the government got involved, and the prejudices still exist, but the employers can't let anyone know, so a lot of people go to useless interviews.
And the Government now Forces everyone to declare his race on all job applications, even for jobs at employers who never cared to know even in the old days.

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Aaron

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2003, 03:18:37 am »

Excellent post, Zack.  I for one would rather know where the racists are in my neighborhood than find out the hard way.  As a white male, I do not have first hand experience with very much discrimination; but I am vegetarian.  I cannot count how many times I would have been saved a lot of time and aggravation if a restaurant owner had simply posted a sign that said, "Get out hippie, tree hugging, vegetarian piece of crap!"
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