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Author Topic: FSP could be great but...  (Read 21187 times)

Radar

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2003, 11:49:28 am »

Quote
As a white male, I do not have first hand experience with very much discrimination; but I am vegetarian.

That's strange.  As a straight white single male, I feel like I'm the target of racism, sexism, and a host of other discrimination.  I'm blamed and expected to pay for things I didn't do 200 years ago to people they didn't happen to.  I'm blamed for the glass ceiling, murder of indians, slavery, oppression, etc. and I had nothing to do with those things.  I can lose my spot in college to a less qualified person because of their skin color.  I can be refused a government contract even though I'm the best bidder because I'm not a minority.  I've got to work much harder to get the same things.  And then after all this injury, I'm insulted by being told that I'm handed everything and that life is easy for white people.

There is only one color in this country that matters, and that color is green.  

Affirmative action is racism.  It's not reverse racism, it's just plain government sanctioned racism.  Recently UCLA and Berkeley had some students have a bake sale and sell muffins or cookies to people at different prices based on their race with white people being the most expensive and blacks the least.  It was a perfect example of what's wrong with it.

I don't mean to get on a tyrade here, but this is one of my large pet peeves.

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Aaron

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2003, 11:12:13 pm »

It is not strange, we just have different definitions of the phrase "FIRST HAND experience".  All of your examples affect me indirectly and from afar.  No one on the bus has ever blamed me to my face directly for any of these things.  

I am not disagreeing with any of your points; in fact I agree with you on most if not all.  They bother me as well.  Our miscommunication is probably due to the fact that I used a vague term "discrimination".  Had I been more specific (i.e. spelling out that I rarely am verbally or physically accosted for being a member of a minority) it probably wouldn't have happened.

It would have been nice; however, if you had used the context of the rest of my post to try to determine what I was talking about.  My subsequent reference to the verbal abuse I receive for having certain dietary habits should have been a clear indication that I was not referring to the types of experiences you then pointed out.

Likewise, it would have been nice if you had reworded your post to be less abrasive.  Specifically, your opening "that's strange" could, and probably was construed by many readers to imply that I am an idiot for not recognizing all of the "discrimination" against white males going on all around me.  Did you really mean to insult me?  If so, why?  Did doing so help achieve a productive goal of yours?

If not, then maybe you should consider the advice on the "how not to tick people off" thread.  It does not matter how right you are and how wrong everyone else is.  The trick to persuasion is not in WHAT you say but in HOW you say it.

There is an important principle here that seems to be lost on many participants in this forum, not just Radar.  For some, it seems exposure to Objectivist philosophy is part of the problem.  Objectivist metaphysics says that reality is fundamental to perception.  Problem is, not everything is a metaphysical issue.  Perception is more important than reality in certain contexts.  Take customer service.  If a customer THINKS his food was served promptly, does the actual elapsed time matter?  Likewise, if a customer THINKS it is taking forever to get his order; IT DOES NOT MATTER if only two minutes has elapsed since he placed his order.  What is important in customer service is if your customer is happy and will come back, not the "reality" of how long as measured by a stopwatch his order took to fill.

It would be much more productive if many of the writers of posts I have seen would ask themselves before posting a message, "What am I trying to accomplish by posting this message?"  If your goal is to persuade others that an opinion you have is one that they should share, then perhaps it would be more effective to rewrite the post in a more diplomatic manner.  If your goal is to piss people off and have them hate you (even if your ideas have merit), then by all means turn the sarcasm on full blast!
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Zack Bass

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2003, 11:28:17 pm »


  ... maybe you should consider the advice on the "how not to tick people off" thread.  It does not matter how right you are and how wrong everyone else is.  The trick to persuasion is not in WHAT you say but in HOW you say it.

It would be much more productive if many of the writers of posts I have seen would ask themselves before posting a message, "What am I trying to accomplish by posting this message?"  If your goal is to persuade others that an opinion you have is one that they should share, then perhaps it would be more effective to rewrite the post in a more diplomatic manner.  If your goal is to piss people off and have them hate you (even if your ideas have merit), then by all means turn the sarcasm on full blast!


Yeah, a lot of people make the mistake of using the tactics of persuasion when what they really mean to do is amuse those who already more or less agree with them, or just vent.
I am more realistic.  I realize persuasion is hopeless in most cases.  The object of my post is rarely the person to whom I am replying.  My audience is the lurkers.

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RacecaR

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2003, 02:48:56 am »

Aaron, I wasn't insulting you at all.  I was just saying it's strange or unusual to me that a white man would say they don't have first hand knowledge of discrimination when in my eyes, the straight white single man is the single most discriminated against person in America.

My examples effect most white men directly.  I've personally been accused of slavery, murdering Indians, etc.  

Don't be so thin skinned.  I was just surprised that you hadn't experienced discrimination.  That's not an insult, and it's not even close to doing something to piss you off.  I've been in many long and heated discussions on the subject of affirmative action in California.  

I am not in favor of affirmative action because I'm not a white supremacist.  I don't think people are inferior based on thier race and therefore don't see the need for a helping hand based on it.
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Aaron

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2003, 04:21:10 am »

Radar,

The point of my post was not that I was insulted.  The point was that the method you use to communicate your ideas to others is ineffective.

By ineffective I mean that the goal you desire to achieve via your communications is not achieved and a different, undesirable result is instead achieved.

You obviously did not intend to insult me or piss me off since you followed up by trying to demonstrate that your post was neither insulting nor capable of pissing me off.  I do not find your reasoning valid, however.  First of all, saying that since you could do things that would REALLY piss me off, therefore I must not be pissed off over this petty forum post is disingenious.  That would be like saying pinching you doesn't hurt because if I really wanted to hurt you I would bludgeon your skull into a bloody pulp with a baseball bat.  The argument is illogical because pinching someone still hurts even if it does not hurt as much as having your skull bludgeoned to a bloody pulp with a baseball bat.  The fact is that insulting people does sometimes piss them off even if you are capable of pissing them off even more by, say, for instance, hacking their computer and erasing the contents of their hard drive.  Secondly, "that is not an insult" is not for you to decide.  The nature of the term "insult" is that it can only be defined by the person who is insulted.  The INTENT of the insulter has nothing to do with it.  Now if you want to argue that I do not have a good REASON to be insulted (I am being too thin skinned, etc.) then that is a different story.  Whether I am justified in labeling your post as an insult is a different debate from whether it is an insult in the first place.  

Now, some may read this and think I am quibbling with semantics.  I agree.  I feel, however, that semantics are important; especially in an intellectual debate.  How many times have you seen two debaters argue themselves blue in the face while they argue right past one another?  This almost always is the result of the debaters using the same term to represent two different things.  Many times, if they would simply stop, backtrack, and agree on the definitions of their terms; they would find that they actually agree on the issue they are debating.

Truthfully, I did not lose any sleep over the way you used the phrase "that's strange."  Again, my point is not that I was insulted.  My point was that HOW you say something is just as, if not more important than WHAT you are saying.  Look at how much more diplomatic your follow up is.  "I am surprised that you have not come face to face with those who would blame you for slavery, native american genocide, etc.  I have."  This statement is far superior in effect than "That's strange."  Say "that's strange" out loud.  I have a hard time saying it without sounding condescending.  It does not matter if you intend it to be condescending or not.  I know that we are on the same side, so I am willing to look past the style in which you write to try to discern the ideas you are trying to convey.  But only your friends are going to be willing to do that.  In the Free State, 20,000 peole will have to persuade 100,000 (or more if we move to NH) to vote our way.  Most of them are not going to be our friends; and will therefore close their minds shut tight at the first hint of condescension.

For the benefit of new members of this forum who may be reading this thread and wondering why I would make such a mountain out of a molehill, I would like to explain some background.  Radar, who is now calling himself RacecaR has a history of hiding his sometimes well reasoned opinions in a sea of inflammatory rantings.  Some of these apparently degenerated into personal attacks about another member of this forum.  Jason (and/or possibly other board members) decided this was a sufficient violation of the forum rules to have him banned.  (Thus the new nickname, soon to be followed by many more I predict.)  This thread was the first time he has responded to anything I have posted; and thus was the first time I had reason to address these issues.  The points I am trying to make may seem out of proportion to the specifics of these last few posts, but they apply to many of his posts; and, perhaps more importantly, to the posts of many others in this forum as well.

(BTW Zack, before you get started, I do not mean you.  You have stated quite openly that your posts are intended to shock as much as they are intended to get others to think.  And you usually succeed admirably.)

If you look closely at my original response, you will notice that I actually agree with the CONTENT of your post.  What I am questioning is the STYLE in which you deliver that content.  The reason why I am questioning it has nothing to do with whether I was personally insulted by your post or not.  The only reason why I care is because many prospective members read these threads as guests who are trying to decide whether or not to join.  I fear a significant portion have this first impression:  They sure are arrogant and condescending.  I don't think I want to associate with them.

The woman from Alaska was a troll (self admittedly).  But one in 98 percent was not.  Her legitimate questions about anti-smoking laws degenerated into a debate about Zack's mail order brides.  She has not posted in a while, and I will be surprised if she returns.  That does not mean we won the debate.  That means we lost it.  If we had won, she would now be a signed member fully participating in this forum and other FSP activities.  Remember what our goal is:  getting new members to commit to moving to the chosen state and being politically active in that state.  The fact that you can point to inflammatory statements in some of her posts is irrelevant.  Politics is sales and marketing.  In this instance, we are the salesmen and she was the potential client.  The client has the right to be as ornery as he/she wants to.  It is the salesman's job to grin and bear it.  Otherwise, we lose the sale.

This may just be one example, but how many others read that thread, decided we were whackos, and left without even registering in the forum?  And how many friends does one in 98 percent have?  She talks to a lot of people every day if she is a bartender.  How many other members did we lose by failing to convince her of our worth?

Let me get back to my original assertion that your communication skills are not effective.  When you joined this forum, Radar, did you say to yourself, "I think I will try to get myself banned from this forum"?  If so, I take back my original assertion.  If not, then quit harping about Joe being a liar and about Jason being a hypocrite.  Neither of those assertions will help you change their behavior.  The only way to change the way others react to your actions is by changing the nature of your actions.

The only reason I can think of for you to continue holding a grudge against them is your personal pride.  I have nothing against personal pride per se.  But do you value your personal pride more than you value the success of the FSP?  If not, then perhaps it is time for you to be the better man, take the higher road, (insert your favorite cliche here); and do what you need to do to make peace with Jason et. al.  (If that is even possible.  I have no way of knowing how deep the rift is due to your private messages with them.)  If your personal pride is more important; well, that is up to you.  It is after all a matter of personal values.  I know what I would choose, but we all have different priorities.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2003, 07:38:58 am »

I recently wrapped up an email conversation with Radar/Racecar, and he's promised from now on to refrain from attacks on people's motives or intelligence when making his arguments, so I'm going to give him another chance, as he obviously is very interested in continuing to participate in these fora.  I've asked Charles to restore his old username if that's possible.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

LeopardPM

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2003, 10:42:22 am »

in regards to 'we lost' if the AlaskanWomane troll did not sign up - I disagree - we can't/won't get everyone we talk to to agree, or even a majority of folks - we better be able to deal with rejection and realize that it isn't personal OR a 'loss'  - we did get the opportunity to express our views, and, for awhile she talked - all positive to me...  at least she has a little bit more understanding of what a lib is than before...
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Zack Bass

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2003, 12:16:51 pm »


  ... at least she has a little bit more understanding of what a lib is than before...


It doesn't matter what she understands.  She is a Statist and will never have an interest in Liberty.
What is important is that we were able to speak indirectly to the lurkers who are checking us out to see if we really mean what we say.  They are our audience.  It matters not one whit what the Statists think.  They can like us or hate us, understand us or misunderstand us, the fact is that they will never support us either way, so there is no reason to take them into consideration.

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RacecaR

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2003, 12:20:01 pm »

Aaron:  I'm not going to knitpick with you over semantics.  I didn't attempt to insult you.  But if you were insulted that's on you.  If I were to say you had a nice hair cut and you thought it was some sort of backhanded complement and an actual insult, that's all in your head.  You can feel insulted at anything you like.  The point is I wasn't trying to insult you so you have no valid complaint against me.

My writing style is a form of free writing.  I say what's on my mind at that moment.  You can feel free to critique it, but don't be disappointed if I ignore your critiques because I'm not likely to change anyway.

I say we won with regard to Alaskan woman.  If someone who doesn't truly value freedom (which Alaskan woman clearly didn't) the FSP isn't for them.  And they can only do harm to it rather than help it.
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Aaron

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2003, 04:17:38 pm »

When I said we lost the debate, I was referring to one in 98 percent, not the Alaskan woman.  In marketing, especially telemarketing you are making your sales on the margins.  95% of the pitches you make will be to people who will never buy your product.  The woman from Alaska seems to fall in this category.   The other five out of one hundred have the propensity to be convinced, you just have to figure out what to say to them to get the sale.  You had better get at least two or three of them to buy, or you will be out of a job.  I don't know if one in 98 percent falls into the latter category, there is no way to tell that about anyone unless they actually sign up.  I think that we would have had a better chance of winning her over if the thread had not changed subjects midway from anti-smoking ordinances to mail order brides.  Some of those posts were funny and amusing, but the category this thread is in is "Prospective Members" not "Funny and Amusing Things to Say to Get a Rise Out of People".

Radar, I congratulate you and Jason on working things out.  As for your being likely or not to change your style of writing, it seems from Jason's post that you have already promised to do so.  Assuming Jason's post is accurate, and that you intend to stick to your promise, I believe this is a positive thing.  I agree with a lot of the ideas you present in your many posts.  They will be clearer and better received if they are separated from "attacks on people's motives or intelligence".

As for the largest paragraph of your most recent post, Radar, it indicates to me that you did not read my earlier post.  It is a really long post dedicated almost solely to explaining that whether or not I was or was not insulted has nothing to do with the point I am trying to make.  It is not important to me because, once again, it has nothing to do with my point.  Yet you dedicated half of your most recent reply to the issue of if I have a valid reason for being insulted by that specific post.  It does not matter to me.  The very first sentence of my previous post is:

"The point of my post was not that I was insulted."

In fact, at one point in this thread I actually accepted partial responsibility for our miscommunication by pointing out that perhaps I should have been more specific with the term "discrimination".  Furthermore, if you carefully reread my previous posts, I have never actually stated that I was insulted by your post.  This was deliberate on my part because I never intended to make an issue of whether or not I was insulted by that specific post.  The issue I have been trying to address is the style of writing that some of the members of this forum use that drives newcomers away contrary to our goal of attracting new members.  Sarcastic and inflammatory posts are sometimes funny and amusing, but maybe there is a more appropriate place for them other than the "Prospective Members" threads.  

The two previous sentences have nothing to do with your specific post that started "That's strange."  They refer to many posts by more than one member of the forum.  My desire is for these forum members to adjust the tone of their posts to be more thought provoking and less adversarial.  According to Jason, this is something you have already agreed to do, Radar.  I applaud you for doing so, and I hope others follow your excellent example.  
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BobW

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2003, 12:48:34 am »

Hi Aaron,

Re # 55;

Sometimes the sale is detrimental to both parties.  

One in 98% is experiencing a "problem pregnancy".  This expression does not relate to classical health/medical matters but to the socialological and related psychological aspects.

She cannot relocate, participate in politics or even provide support services, eg stuffing envelopes.

I find it sad that she has no support groups to assist her.  I also find it sad that she tell customers not to smoke.  Her passive-aggressive action does not assist her pregnancy.

One in 98% represents a segment of the American population who will be wards of society for perhaps their lifetime.  The problem I am concerned with is her pending new citizen.  We can project the results.

BobW
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Aaron

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2003, 01:27:26 am »

Good point, Bob.

I sympathize with her because though as a libertarian I disagree with the principle of forcing business owners to behave a certain way, I hate having to smell smoke while I am eating.  I am therefore forced to live with the dichotomy of being against a law that makes my life more pleasant.

If I had read this thread before it got too long, I would have pointed out to her that California Pizza Kitchen, a nationwide chain, banned smoking in all of its restaurants even before the California law went into effect.  In fact, it is the only restaurant in the Palm Springs area that bans smoking on its patios even though the state law does not require it.  I would have recommended that she apply to work there since there are plenty in L.A. (I think that is where she said she is from.)  The chain started in Beverly Hills.  Also, I believe that the policy is corporate wide, even in the non California locations.  So it is possible for a business owner to make the sort of economic decision she is hoping for without government intervention.
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RhythmStar

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2003, 07:45:06 am »

On the smoking thing...

Along with my other activities, I am a musician and I play nightclubs.  As far as I am concerned, the California smoking ban has been a health God-send.  It's politically a bad thing, if one wants to be a purist about it, but making a person choose between working and breathing is at least as bad, or worse, so I am not apologetic.

However, I do play one nightclub in California where you can still smoke -- the Mission Tobacco Lounge, in Riverside.  Actually, I'm performing there tonight.  They have a killer ventilation system, which is how they get to allow smoking.   The system works so well, the air is better inside Mission Tobacco than in unventilated non-smoking clubs with a parking lot full of frantic puffers.  

So come on down and smoke all you want -- I won't mind. :)

RS




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BobW

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2003, 11:47:36 am »

Hi rhythmStar,

Re # 58;

That California smoking ban benefits you but it does not benefit those who like to smoke or do not like to smoke but still do.  It doesn't matter.

As soon as a political movement developes seeking to make illegal live music in night clubs in California, you will understand.

The historical parallel example is prohibition.

BobW
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RhythmStar

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2003, 02:11:13 pm »

Hi rhythmStar,

Re # 58;

That California smoking ban benefits you but it does not benefit those who like to smoke or do not like to smoke but still do.  It doesn't matter.

As soon as a political movement developes seeking to make illegal live music in night clubs in California, you will understand.

The historical parallel example is prohibition.

BobW

Live music and nightclubs are banned all the time in California. They call them 'city governments' and 'zoning laws'.  

Here in Newport Beach, there is a wonderful old theatre (the Port) that has been idle for years because the city won't give anyone a permit to run an entertainment business there because of parking and traffic. They won't let anyone build parking, yet the big home developments between Newport Beach and Laguna Beach are turning the main drag in front of the theatre into a parking lot anyway.  

RS
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