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Author Topic: Interested but have a question  (Read 18953 times)

elginx

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Interested but have a question
« on: June 10, 2003, 05:36:53 pm »

I am very excited about the FSP but not commited yet. This may seem like a stupid question but it is a very important one to me and I believe it is relevant to larger issues about the rights of some interfering with the rights of others. Right now I am having a particularly difficult time with "anti smoking" laws that are being ignored at my workplace here in California. My situation is one that isnt addressed very often-I became pregnant while working in a bar that unlawfully allows smoking. I never liked the smoke, I had sore throats and respiratory problems while working there but after I became pregnant it became a matter of protecting my unborn child.  I feel that it infringes upon my rights if I cannot work in or even go into a bar or restaraunt because my life span will be shortened by the people who choose to smoke.  If it's ok to smoke cigarettes then when pot and crack are legal will that be ok to smoke in public? Would you take your kids to a restaraunt or park where people were smoking meth and cigs, would you want to go to pub and sip a beer next to a guy who is casually smoking a crack pipe?
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2003, 06:24:14 pm »

Business owners should be allowed to make arrangements for smoking or non-smoking on their own property.  It isn't a health issue - it's a freedom issue.  In most places, there are businesses that have either created non-smoking areas or banned smoking altogether because that's what their customers and employees want.  Those businesses that cater to smokers should be free to do so.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

ShrineGuard

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2003, 07:19:37 pm »

And as far as parks go, if any private citizens set aside parts of their land as parks, they can make similar arrangements.

There are many sides to the smoking issue, but publicly banning smoking altogther destroys any possible realistic solution.  If smoking is legal in a private establishment, then the owner will create seperate smoking and nonsmoking areas if pressure is applied by customers and employees.  If smoking is banned, there is no way to create seperate areas without iliciting suspicion from authorities, and so the smokers smoke while the owner ignores because it's business.

As you yourself said, Elginx, people ignore the smoking laws anyway.  Is there any real point to them, then?
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elginx

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2003, 08:29:30 pm »

Jason
How can it be argued that smoking in enclosed spaces is not a health issue with all of the evidence linking it to serious medical conditions and DEATHS. As far as seperate sections, that would be a fabulous idea if the smoke and carcinogens that it is comprised of didn't travel anywhere, and instead, stayed with the smoker himself.
I can see the freedom argument but neither of you have addressed why the right of the smoker is more important than the rights of the non smoker.
Is it more important to say you don't have to walk 10 feet to smoke outside than to protect the health of the citizens who include innocent children who might not have the choice to "go elsewhere".
I could understand the freedom argument if it was a question of denying people the freedom to smoke period, however,  I don't see denying them smoking in public places so I can be ensured my right to "Life" (which is essentially what the issue is) an infringement on their Liberties.
On this I feel very passionately and I am certain that there are many people who would like to live to see their great grandchildren that would agree with me.
There are so many little things to consider with this project and I am continuing to examine the arguments and learn. I hope others are as well..
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Victor VI

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2003, 09:08:09 pm »


I can see the freedom argument but neither of you have addressed why the right of the smoker is more important than the rights of the non smoker.

But he did address it. A bar or a restaurant is a private business. Neither the smoker or the non-smoker are the holders of rights, the owner of the business is. It's up to him who he wants to accomodate. His choice. Anyone who doesn't like the house rules is free to patronize a place with rules more to their liking.
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goon

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2003, 09:38:47 pm »

Strictly speaking, I absolutely detest smoking.
I think that it does harm people and even lead to their deaths. That is what the evidence says. I also hate what the tobacco companies do. They get people hooked and add extra nicotine to keep them that way.
In a public building (not a privately owned establishment), no one has the right to blow their fumes in my face.
In a private building that you own, no one has the right to tell you not to. That would be like me coming to your house and telling you that you need to sweep the floor because it is dirty and it bothers me.
You would probably ask me how it is any of my business, and you would be right.
In short, I can understand your concerns. I hate tobacco and what it does to people, but I can't support telling people not to use it and I can't support telling a business owner what he can and can't allow on his property. The only way to deal with that is to not use his establishment.
Also, in our ideal society, you would also have the right to tell people that they couldn't smoke in your establishment just as you would have the right to allow them to.
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elginx

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2003, 11:01:49 pm »

Good rebuttals. It's very hard to give up the good with the bad but I suppose it's necessary.
Unfortunately I am not financially able to be an owner who makes decisions, I am just a peon trying to survive and raise my kids on a bartenders salary.
That is one of my concerns with the project...what kind of jobs will be available for people like me?
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ShrineGuard

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2003, 11:14:13 pm »

I personally think that you will actually be much more able to find a job than many other Porcupines.  It has been tossed around that many Porcupines will have troubles because too many are entrepreuners and too few are willing to work the jobs that other Porcupines create.  Therefore, as you would definatly be willing to work in a Porcupine-run bar, if not somewhere nicer, you would be first on the list of a Porcupine business owner as an employee.  Others here might have the problem of humbling themselves.
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Radar

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2003, 01:48:26 am »

elginx:  You knew people smoked in bars before you took the job.  If you don't like being exposed to smoke, you have the right to leave that job and seek work elsewhere.  But telling people they can't smoke in a bar is like telling people they can't read in a Library.  Also, the people who frequent bars or work in them, are accepting the health risks involved with the smoke and the alcohol.  

Bar owners should choose for themselves whether their bar to be a smoking or non-smoking one, or whether or not they'll have a non-smoking section.

I have never smoked a single ciggarette, but I've worked in Casinos as a dealer and bars as a bartender for years.  It would be ignorant for me to expect others to stop smoking in either of these environments for my comfort.

I have no problem working for others or for myself.  In fact I would like to open a bar with a kitchen, pool tables, darts, a stage for bands or karaoke, and slot machines/video poker in the free state.  If I can swing it you are welcome to apply for a job providing you agree to work in a smoke filled bar.

As far as people using drugs in public I don't see a problem with it.  Seeing someone smoke a crack pipe is no more offensive to me than seeing them smoke a 25 cent el stinkadora cigar.  Watching someone inject themselves with heroin is no different to me than watching them inject themselves with insulin.  
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elginx

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2003, 09:58:34 am »

Radar
Talk to me when you are 60 and are dragging an oxygen tank behind you. I agree however, that I knew they smoked in this bar before I started but after I became pregnant, everything changed. I continue to work because I need the $, and I don't allow smoking while I am there. I am not popular with everyone, including my boss. Thankfully, the laws protect me against being fired for being pregnant which leads me to another question...if I were living in a free state, would there be labor laws?

A note to anyone who might have some advice: I am really excited about this and am ready to sign. I sat my fiance down to tell him about it and he dismissed it without even looking into it. He has very liberal views on many issues and when I said the words free state project, he envisioned a compound full of anti government militants carrying m-16s. His question to me was "Who backs this thing? It has to be funded by some group like the NRA (what's wrong with the NRA?" I ask)  or some neo nazi group (I don't know where that came from) so if anyone knows, who, if anyone, contributes to this thing and does anyone have any suggestions on how to approach him again.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2003, 10:24:33 am by elginx »
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Stumpy

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2003, 10:23:27 am »

...if I were living in a free state, would there be labor laws?

Initially many labor laws will exist but we will seek to do away with as many of them as possible.

A business owner should be free to set the working conditions of a business. Employees negotiate the terms of their employment with their employer.

If you cannot come to terms with your employer you should find a job where you can. Don’t enlist the aid of gov’t to force your employer to do something he or she wouldn’t voluntarily do.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2003, 10:25:26 am »

Thankfully, the laws protect me against being fired for being pregnant which leads me to another question...if I were living in a free state, would there be labor laws?

Well, here again government's only role is to protect individual rights.  So employers should be free to hire and fire on any criteria they wish - except that government entities should be subject to anti-discrimination rules.  Discrimination and smoking are both nasty habits, but those of us affected by them have no right to control the resources or private behavior of those who indulge in them.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

elginx

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2003, 10:36:39 am »

So if there are no employment protections for women who get pregnant, or people who become partially disabled, or people who are seniors and there is no welfare for these unemployed, what happens to them?

In a perfect world, all of the above would be looked at for their skills but this is not a perfect world and employers might feel uncomfortable about having them around, worried about the effects of "maternity leave" or the need for elderly to use the restroom more or needing time off to go to the doctor more often etc... By eliminating the requirement on employers to provide a valid reason for discharge, you would be hurting the working poor, who already suffer as it is now. It would also be a huge burden on the private welfare organizations.
I am not trying to be argumentative, I am really curious about these things because this has to be a society where everyone can prosper and enjoy happiness and freedom, not just upper classes.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2003, 10:40:11 am by elginx »
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cathleeninsc

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2003, 11:44:47 am »

Hi and welcome,

The free society that most of us imagine is a benefit to employers and employees alike. No more restrictions on entry to professions. A New Yorker with a car can taxi without the high cost of the privilege. A hair braider can set up shop without paying for required schooling that doesn't even teach braiding. An employer can structure jobs for the low skilled or mentally challenged worker at below minimum wage IF there are workers willing to take them. Comfortable Americans will have more resources in their pockets to take care of family members and contribute to charities that funnel more money to the needy than a government can.

Americans are capable ad compassionate. We don't want to hold anyone back from being all they can be. Let's make a place for the less emloyable rather than continue a system that doesn't work well for anyone.

Cathleen in SC
« Last Edit: June 11, 2003, 11:47:13 am by cathleeninsc »
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BobW

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2003, 12:06:09 pm »

Hi Elginx,

I've been following this thread and understand why your posts are negative.

I hope there is a future with no employment protections.  Our country is loaded with regulations "for women who get pregnant", "people who become partly disabled", "people who are seniors [the richest segment of American demographics are seniors, B.W.]".

Have you noticed that the laws, regulations and taxes collected to support these programs aren't filtering down to the folks in need?!  

There are better, private sector methods to answer your question.  Our headache is an entrenched bureaucracy and their contractors who absorb the funds intended to reach those categories you mentioned.

It's not that employers are uncomfortable about "maternity leave".  The leave can place the business at risk.  You have a problem in your current employment.  Your situation would be worse if the bar closed down.

Some employers need not give a valid reason for discharge.  Even with a valid reason and it was exercised, the employee still had the same requirement; plan for emergencies.

The working poor do have problems.  The problems are tracable to government.  Your posts validate this.

It is NOT a huge burden on private welfare organizations.  They exist - and been around for a long time  (earlier than the welfare state)-because they thrive and grow in assisting others.  The US is different than most other countries. I belong to one of these organizations.  We are in better shape than the related state agencies.

I'm also trying to ditch the employer requirement to accomodate National Guard and active duty for training reserve time off.  Businesses are bearing a burden placing them at risk.

Misc;
Don't believe all that health "evidence" about smoking.  It's annoying and definitely affects the laundry loads and dry cleaning bill but for all the conferences and rooms Ive been in where the place looked like Napolean's artillery just closed down the Russians - I'm still typing here.......

You can handle your pregnancy.  In a short time your child will be in school.  You wrote that you're in California.  Elginx, the smoking problem is nominal compared to finding a school where education is involved in the daily routine.

I am not in the upper class.

BobW
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