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Author Topic: Interested but have a question  (Read 19249 times)

Jack Harrison

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2003, 12:46:23 pm »

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2 - (Ownership): When you scrimp and save your money for 20 years to start up a bar called "Smokeys' Den of Cigars and Whiskey", and then the government bans smoking in all bars, is that really fair?
There's so much going on I haven't had a chance to leave my computer!
To respond to this...As everyone has been telling me about the pregnancy and smoking and fairness, it's not about what's fair. I believe that we have the right to LIFE, first and foremost. If the man who scrimps and saves is endangering our lives then the govt. has a responsibility to step in and say no more. If it was not deadly, just annoying, I would agree that the government would have no reason to say anything at all.
I would also like to address the issue of the cost to consumers by having safety laws. The expression goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It costs more for companies to settle lawsuits than it does to comply with laws that prevent illness, injury or death.

Well! We have much to discuss! And of course we disagree. I much prefer this to talking to someone I agree completely with, by the way.

If Mr. Smokerguy bar owner is doing something in his privately owned bar that might endanger folks in that bar - they are free to leave. It is, after all, his bar. No one has forced anyone to patronize such bar, nor to work there. The federal government has no right nor responsibility to stick its nose inside that bar door. NONE! I'm not totally clear on where the state government line is drawn in this case though, but most of FSP issues are with the central government.

So you believe you have a right to life. OK, fine. You apparently also believe that the government has a responsibility to protect that life. Does that include filling in swimming pools, burning baseball bats, dulling kitchen knives, and melting down firearms, and welding the wheels of your automobile so it can't move anymore? It'd better include those, or I'm going to be all over you for only thinking it applies to those things that bother you at the moment.
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onyx_goddess

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2003, 12:53:40 pm »

Jack - I think the issue between you and others who disagree is the difference between anarchist captitalists and limited government libertarians.  I definitely sympathise with the anarchists, but I still believe police officers could play a role in a free society.   However, your point about WHO is actually a good point.  In the case of the shooter, you could pull out your own gun and protect yourself, why "call 911 and die"?  However, let's say a police officer did in fact walk up behind the shooter and club him with a nightstick.  Is that so wrong?  Maybe I got a cramp in my arm and didn't have time to pull out my own nightstick.  And your vigilante burning down example is horrible.  Again with the anarchy.  I burn down my neighbors house, he shoots me in the process, my wife sets him on fire, his wife takes a knife and ....  At some point wouldn't it be easier to use some sort of tort system instead of mob rule?

onein98percent - The owner of the bar is in no way hurting anyone who doesn't choose to be hurt.  The only case is if poor ventilation is sending the smoke right into your living room somehow.  Otherwise, the name of the bar should be enough to clue you in that if you don't want to expose yourself to risk, don't enter the bar.  If your concern is that the state should protect us from injury, then I agree.  If a factory starts belching out sludge that lands in my yard, I don't want to have to go with Jack and burn the factory down.  I'd like to make a few phone calls and have someone else shut them down through government action.  It's just more sane to me.  But, if that factory is in no way actually forcing some harm on me, then I shouldn't have any rights in the situation at all.  If I walk into the factory and jump into a vat of sludge, that's my own fault.  Now, replace "sludge" with "smoke" and "factory" with "bar".
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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2003, 12:54:29 pm »

It's my house, is it ok for me to beat my kids with an electrical cord, or starve them?
It's his bar, is it OK for him to pull a gun out and start shooting? Come on...private ownership does not mean that you have free reign to do whatever the hell you want.
As far as banning autos etc...I could repeatedly play baseball, or drive an automobile, or swim and I may never experience injury, illness or death. If I repeatedly am exposed to smoke, chemicals, mold etc...I am guaranteed to experience injury, illness or death.
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Jack Harrison

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2003, 01:03:41 pm »

It's my house, is it ok for me to beat my kids with an electrical cord, or starve them?

NO. And your good neighbors in the FSP would know something's wrong and do something about it, because they would be true neighbors.

It's his bar, is it OK for him to pull a gun out and start shooting?

No. See, he knows he might get ONE shot off before he's shot himself. Everyone in that bar would probably have a gun in a free world. Maybe even only one or two - its just not knowing which one thats the problem.

I don't believe that there are no responsibilities for your actions. Quite the contrary. Freedom means doing what you want as long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's ability/desire to do the same.


Come on...private ownership does not mean that you have free reign to do whatever the hell you want.
As far as banning autos etc...I could repeatedly play baseball, or drive an automobile, or swim and I may never experience injury, illness or death.

Funny, I am repeatedly exposed to guns, ammo, explosives, archery equipment....and I never experience any of it either. Guess what - others do. A very large number of people are killed in swimming pools every year - just maybe not you. Suggesting that the government do something about only one of the things that can kill you is, well, you get the idea.

If I repeatedly am exposed to smoke, chemicals, mold etc...I am guaranteed to experience injury, illness or death.

If exposed to clean air for long enough you will experience same.
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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2003, 01:11:17 pm »

Quote
[If I walk into the factory and jump into a vat of sludge, that's my own fault.  Now, replace "sludge" with "smoke" and "factory" with "bar". /quote]
I see your point and in the matter of patrons, I agree. Employees, I disagree and I know there are alot of people who will be screaming about this comment.
My opinion is based largely on where I live. Here in California the cost of living is so high that many people fall under the "working poor" and people that are considered middle class in the national averages are living hand to mouth. There are also many unemployed and the competition for even the most menial jobs is fierce.
If I am a construction worker and I apply for a job where the owner tells me that I am guaranteed the job but I will be exposed to carcinogenic chemicals, how am I to make the choice between the feeding the children I had when times were good and causing myself serious health damages years from now. The immediate need vs. long term consequences. love for family vs. love for self.  Having been out of work for months, bill collectors on his back, knowing he won't have another offer for many more months, the construction worker has no choice but to endanger his health and take the job. This may not be a reality for any of you, I don't know your situations, but this is life here in California and maybe I am being too "emotional" instead of looking at the "greater good" but I do not think it is right. If jobs were plentiful and the companies cared more about people then profit, if money trees existed...it just isn't reality to say that the best will always happen. You have to be prepared for the absolute worst and hope for the best.
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Jack Harrison

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2003, 01:15:40 pm »

Quote
[If I walk into the factory and jump into a vat of sludge, that's my own fault.  Now, replace "sludge" with "smoke" and "factory" with "bar". /quote]
I see your point and in the matter of patrons, I agree. Employees, I disagree and I know there are alot of people who will be screaming about this comment.
My opinion is based largely on where I live. Here in California the cost of living is so high that many people fall under the "working poor" and people that are considered middle class in the national averages are living hand to mouth. There are also many unemployed and the competition for even the most menial jobs is fierce.
If I am a construction worker and I apply for a job where the owner tells me that I am guaranteed the job but I will be exposed to carcinogenic chemicals, how am I to make the choice between the feeding the children I had when times were good and causing myself serious health damages years from now. The immediate need vs. long term consequences. love for family vs. love for self.  Having been out of work for months, bill collectors on his back, knowing he won't have another offer for many more months, the construction worker has no choice but to endanger his health and take the job. This may not be a reality for any of you, I don't know your situations, but this is life here in California and maybe I am being too "emotional" instead of looking at the "greater good" but I do not think it is right. If jobs were plentiful and the companies cared more about people then profit, if money trees existed...it just isn't reality to say that the best will always happen. You have to be prepared for the absolute worst and hope for the best.

Just a thought...would you Californians still be so poor if 2/5 or more of your income didn't go to paying taxes - and for illegal immigrants to go to school, and health care. Suppose you had that other 1/3 of the year you work to pay for taxes to do something else with? Would you be better off or worse? Just a thought.
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Karl

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2003, 01:16:55 pm »

It's my house, is it ok for me to beat my kids with an electrical cord, or starve them?
It's his bar, is it OK for him to pull a gun out and start shooting? Come on...private ownership does not mean that you have free reign to do whatever the hell you want.

No(?), no, and no.  You do not have the right to beat your kids with an electrical cord if you cause serious injury, but surely your have the right to inflict SOME pain for misbehavior, such as in a spanking.  You can't starve them either.   And you can't start shooting people in your bar except for an act of self defence.  People must still be held accountable to their actions if the commit force or fraud.

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As far as banning autos etc...I could repeatedly play baseball, or drive an automobile, or swim and I may never experience injury, illness or death. If I repeatedly am exposed to smoke, chemicals, mold etc...I am guaranteed to experience injury, illness or death.

Nonetheless, you have a choice in both matters.  You can choose not to expose yourself to these chemicals, just as you can choose not to drive a car, play baseball, or swim.  In any case, you're wrong -- I have been to countless smoke-filled bars, drank chlorinated water from swimming pools,  and I have in no way been injured.  I have also consumed alcohol and caffeine, substances proven to have harmful effects.  It was my choice every time -- nobody made me do those things.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 11:56:08 pm by ManchVegas »
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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2003, 01:29:53 pm »

Quote
Just a thought...would you Californians still be so poor if 2/5 or more of your income didn't go to paying taxes - and for illegal immigrants to go to school, and health care. Suppose you had that other 1/3 of the year you work to pay for taxes to do something else with? Would you be better off or worse? Just a thought.  
 
Paying for illegal immigrants and health care for children and seniors is such an infintesmal part of our taxes that it isn't worth counting. Our taxes are insane and our shady and bungling governor wwww.recallgraydavis.com is raising them more. Yes, alleviated tax burdens would help us alot but it wouldn't touch the huge problem of unemployment and the outrageous cost of living (In my area the AVERAGE cost of a home is close to half a million dollars).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2003, 01:31:43 pm by onein98percent »
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BobW

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2003, 01:39:35 pm »

Hi 1 in 98%,

Now, I understand the problem and why we disagree on some points.

I was discussing the United States.

In 1903, the various categories of people were at the height of civilization (I'll accept some arguments here.)

The working conditions were supurb compared to Europe and Asia.  Women had more rights in the US than in Europe and Asia.  Believe Wyoming was a first in voting rights for the ladies.  Minorities were in great shape compared to the European minorities and Asian minorities.  Children were protected better in the States than elsewhere.  Now, of course, I know this wasn't a weekend event where the citizenry went from rags to riches in 72 hours .....

Life was "upbeat" for the loads of immigrants from all over.  There were many problems.  For example, in California Oriental Asians were forbidden to marry whites.  Still, the problems were less than elsewhere.  

Now, you know I'm using a little sarcasm here, 1/98%.  What is important is that you read up on a little of this stuff.  You've got a lot happening all in a compressed time.  

As an aside, I was discussing with a friend in California, the Orphan Trains; circa 1875 -1920. The kids were sent "out west".  tTere were probably many a scandal hidden.  In the meantime, the counterparts elsewhere were in virtual slavery.  This place was better.

BobW
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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2003, 01:47:11 pm »

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The working conditions were supurb compared to Europe and Asia.  Women had more rights in the US than in Europe and Asia.  Believe Wyoming was a first in voting rights for the ladies.  Minorities were in great shape compared to the European minorities and Asian minorities.  Children were protected better in the States than elsewhere.  Now, of course, I know this wasn't a weekend event where the citizenry went from rags to riches in 72 hours .....
How conditions compared to europe and asia isn't relevant. How they compare to conditions now is.
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BobW

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2003, 03:32:06 pm »

Hi Karl,

Here's a private sector study by Fred Reed on the subject;

http://toogoodreports.com/column/general/reed/102401.htm


BobW
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Radar

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2003, 01:01:45 am »

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I would never call myself a Libertarian. Too close to socialism for me.

Libertarianism is the polar opposite of Socialism.  They are diametrically opposed.  NOTHING could be further from socialism than Libertarianism.  
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Chad Warner

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2003, 03:24:10 pm »

Hello All,

I have spent the afternoon reading through this thread and have decided to put in my two cents worth.

I don't think that the Free State will be a Utopia.  There will be practical problems the porcupines will have to deal with.  Repealing laws that are for the "common good" may have the effect of hurting some.  But in the long run, people will learn again to make decisions for themselves.  It may be a little Darwinian, survival of the fittest, but that's not a bad thing.  Making laws that give the government control over private business is not democracy.  It is socialism.  Telling people that they can't choose one thing or another is fascism.  That is the argument as I see it.


I wish I remembered where I read it, but an interesting quote was "All laws prohibit something therefore removing a choice or freedom, therefore aren't lawmakers really freedom-takers?"  As I said, I don't remember where I read it and I had to paraphrase, but the concept is true.  People who see something happen and say "There ought to be a law!" are the ones who are advocating less freedom.

Everyone dies, that's a fact.  Why does the government feel the need to tell me how to live my life?  Even if they are correct that I will adversely affect my health by doing <insert vice here>.  If I want to smoke and die at a young age, that's my decision.  The responsibility of my action is my own.  If I want to live in a place where my actions are not my own and I NEED to have someone else in charge of my life, I'll move there.  I am choosing freedom.  I am moving to the Free State.

I don't want anyone else telling me what I can or can't do.  That's why I joined the FSP.
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Stumpy

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2003, 03:34:50 pm »

Welcome to the Free State Project Chad. ;D

BTW, where did you hear about the FSP?
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Chad Warner

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2003, 04:55:44 pm »

Good to be here.

I saw  Elizabeth McKinstry on MSNBC.  
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