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Author Topic: Interested but have a question  (Read 18870 times)

onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2003, 09:57:29 am »

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Now, some might argue that elginx isn't a liberty lover after all.

That is correct, she is not.

I did not leave, I am still interested in the project and I have been checking in to hear opinions and comments from people who are addressing this issue. I could not stand the thread the way it was going and I was actually having abdominal pains as a result. I am a liberty lover, considered (you have to remember I am from California) very conservative. I am also a realist, and I know that throwing 100 years of society out the window is unrealistic and dangerous. This issue isn't just about labor laws, that is a small piece of a bigger problem.

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  But I'd argue that she's like a lot of Americans - complacent with the status quo
That is correct.
We will never ever ever persuade the vast majority of Americans to have libertarian views.  And we ought not to.  They like the State, and that is their choice.  We must remove ourselves from their tyranny and free up a small area where we ourselves are Free.  
OK, now that cannot be what this project is about, creating your own little compound state and saying *@?! the rest of the country. My concept when I read about it was that it was to be a model to show the world what good can come from scaling down the gigantic and fast growing monster that is government.
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she, like 98% of Americans, found our views distasteful.
That is no reason to change our views, or to pretend that they are not our views.

Amen! I am just like 98 % of Americans and that is the most important point you have made. Most of the people who live in the state that is chosen, no matter how freedom loving they are, are probably going to fall within the 98%, and no matter how apathetic they were before, when a troop of what they might consider"extremists" come in and try to take over, they will enter the voting booths in record number. So you have to care what the 98% think. There is also the rest of the country to consider, and you are delusional if you think it doesn't matter what they think of the free state. This may be an oversimplification but joe electrician is not going to be ok with working with asbestos without safety equipment and level testing because the laws that forced his employers to use it were abolished. (please don't tell me the employers will use this expensive equipment anyways because even with the laws in place they try to get away with it but here the people's rights and health are protected!)
 I completely understand everyone's idea of the perfect free state but the world is not the same world that it was when the government was that limited, and the world wasn't that great either. To say that the current society to can survive with none of the systems and laws in place is a very risky gamble and I honestly think that even if it was feasable, the majority of people, conservative or not, are not ready for it.

I had to add one last thing, isn't it better to achieve success by limiting government than hold on to dreams of abolishing it?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2003, 10:09:22 am by onein98percent »
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Zack Bass

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2003, 10:12:50 am »


  ... joe electrician is not going to be ok with working with asbestos without safety equipment and level testing because the laws that forced his employers to use it were abolished. (please don't tell me the employers will use this expensive equipment anyways because even with the laws in place they try to get away with it but here the people's rights and health are protected!)


Some jobs are dangerous.  Shall we abolish them, and put those who assess the risk as tolerable out of work?
If joe electrician doesn't want to work with asbestos, then he may work for another employer who, of course, must pay less because he uses the expensive mathods to assure ultra-safety.  Or he may decide he wants more money and is willing to put up with the risk.
If no one is willing to put up with the risk (and they are the only ones who can properly decide whether the risk is worth the money or not!!!!), then the risk-laden employers will be out of business and their lower-paying-but-safety-conscious competitors will hire all the workers.
But of course you want to FORCE all employers to be safety-conscious-according-to-government-standards, and still pay the higher salary.  Can't be done.  You make them pay for all that safety, and also pay the higher salary, and they can't make a profit; all the joe electricians will be out of that job market.
Please let joe be free to choose.

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  ... the majority of people, conservative or not, are not ready for it.


That is correct.  So let them stay where they are, and let us have our Freedom.

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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2003, 10:27:31 am »

you missed my point. Joe electrician represents the 98% or more that you spoke of. Your utopia will not exist unless you can bring more people to the "freedom" way of thinking. To do that, you will have to compromise some freedoms to gain others.
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Zack Bass

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2003, 10:28:12 am »


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We will never ever ever persuade the vast majority of Americans to have libertarian views.  And we ought not to.  They like the State, and that is their choice.  We must remove ourselves from their tyranny and free up a small area where we ourselves are Free.  


OK, now that cannot be what this project is about, creating your own little compound state and saying *@?! the rest of the country.


It has to be.
As you yourself have pointed out, we cannot persuade the Statists.  To attempt that route will result in failure of our goal, which is real Freedom.
Therefore our best bet is to get one small place where we do have enough power to become very Free, and hope thereby to attract liberty lovers to spread to the whole State.  Growing by immigration, not conversion, is the answer.

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  ... isn't it better to achieve success by limiting government than hold on to dreams of abolishing it?


No.
To achieve a slightly Freer State is worthless to me and to people like me.  We want real Freedom.  It's not worth moving to be a little bit more Free.  I'm pretty free where I am now, and I know how to work the System; why should I move to where libertarians will be 15% of the voters instead of 2%?  We'd still lose every important issue.
But gather together into one Western county, and we will have most of the Freedom we want in a single day!  That coup will attract the additional 100,000 we need to take the State.

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Zack Bass

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2003, 10:36:25 am »


you missed my point. Joe electrician represents the 98% or more that you spoke of. Your utopia will not exist unless you can bring more people to the "freedom" way of thinking. To do that, you will have to compromise some freedoms to gain others.


But then we wouldn't have brought people to the "freedom" way of thinking, would we?  They would have brought us to their way of thinking!  Phooey on that.

Either our goal is real Freedom, or we're just another wishy-washy group with nothing to offer a libertarian.  Someday the real libertarians will gather together and carve out real Freedom for themselves.  Maybe the FSP will be it.  Maybe not.

If we adopt your vision, then someone will have to start The Really-Free-We-Really-Really-Mean-It-This-Time State Project.

http://rfwrrmittsp.org     ;D

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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2003, 11:12:07 am »

You guys are not willing to compromise your ideals for any one or any thing. I respect that. I used to be more like that but over the years I have found that I have more success when I am somewhat flexible.
I do have one question
How many of the 3,900 or so signed members are women? I haven't seen very many on these boards.
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BobW

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2003, 11:13:16 am »

Hi 1 in 98%,

I admit I laughed when reading your post.  Please accept that I wasn't laughing at you but just the material you wrote.

Guess who is the employer with the largest number of asbestos claims still waiting to be settled! It is the US Government, in particular the US Navy.  They are still stalling.

I mirror your statement in saying employers try to get away with it.

Slang expressions eg "100 years of society" don't convey much without explaining your position.  In 1903 the situation was upbeat.  Today, we have much work to do.

Don't use California for a model for anything. The Great West and New Hampshire have a different ethnic.

You are not correct in saying that companies treat workers worse than the Government, eg safety equipment.  Cyber space is too limited to list examples.

BobW
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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2003, 11:25:09 am »

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Guess who is the employer with the largest number of asbestos claims still waiting to be settled! It is the US Government, in particular the US Navy.  They are still stalling
I don't doubt that! and my claim is not that the government is wonderful, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else and that is a big beef I have with them.
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Slang expressions eg "100 years of society" don't convey much without explaining your position.  In 1903 the situation was upbeat.  Today, we have much work to do.
"upbeat" is a slang expression with no explanation as well. Life was not good for everyone, working conditions were poor, women had no rights, minorities were treated like animals, children were not protected...I could go on and on. Just who is it that life was "upbeat" for?
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Jack Harrison

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2003, 11:49:11 am »

VERY interesting thread! Elginx, or whatever name you have wound up with - welcome aboard.

I tried to read all 3 pages of responses but must admit I nodded off towards the end.

Elginx - smoking is your medical issue/pet peeve. Suppose mine was perfume? Suppose I had terrible allergies to perfume, or wool, or the smell of garlic, or the color of your shoes made me gag. Suppose the simple smell of chemicals in the air at the chemical plant where I worked made me sick. What then? Those would be health issues, and according to your ideas as they apply to pregnancy - I should be able to make the same arguments about your choice of perfume. I should be, by your argument, able to force my employer to rid his chemical company of the chemical smell, or to force you to stop wearing that perfume.  Someone is always going to be affected by something in the workplace. In this light the laws never end.

In the FreeState of the past, people had to make hard choices to live free - weighing, for example, the negatives of another mouth to feed for years before it became old enough to do work vs. the future need of children to help out on the farm. Or maybe it was living somewhere medical attention was close by because you were sick frequently vs. living out on the range.

In today's society - the same one that many of us are seeking to move away from or at least improve on, people are encouraged to forget that choices have consequences, and to assume someone (big daddy government) will always jump in and help them.

Most of us in the FSP do not agree with this line of thinking. We think that you should be just as free to work in a smoke free company as a smoke filled one. We think that choice should be that of the employer, and if there aren't enough employees who agree with his choice - he'll have to change it. Simple market forces at work. We think that if you are the single provider for your family you should not assume that you will continue to be able to provide for that family should its numbers grow. We think your employer should be able to fire you for putting out less work than another able bodied and willing person.

We (many of us) think that there are consequences to actions and choices. To me that is the one biggest difference between FSPrs and others - we see that you can't have everything, and have decided that the really important things are worth giving up some things.

There are plenty of non-FSPrs that agree on that - but the things they deem most important cause them to be willing to give up the very things we deem most important to keep.

Welcome to the FSP - don't make the mistake of thinking all FSPs think alike - we surely do not. I for one, don't think you're even close to ready - but there are plenty like you who have already signed on nonetheless.
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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2003, 11:58:03 am »

I really don't want to debate the smoking issue any further. I will say this...100 years ago, cigarette smoke, asbestos, mold, chemicals etc.. were not known to cause the serious health problems that they now know they do cause. Perfume is not a carcinogen, cigarettes are. People suffer and die from the effects of these things. That should fall under the governments responsibility of protecting LIFE. Period. Protecting someone's right to convenience is not as important as protecting their right to LIFE. I firmly believe this and I also believe that it does not violate the principles of this project if looked at in that manner.
I hope you continue to read because alot of interesting things have come out of this thread.
You are right that I am not ready, it would be a disservice to everyone who is serious (and I don't think everyone is) to sign when I have so many questions and doubts.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2003, 11:59:47 am by onein98percent »
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Jack Harrison

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2003, 12:08:17 pm »

I really don't want to debate the smoking issue any further. I will say this...100 years ago, cigarette smoke, asbestos, mold, chemicals etc.. were not known to cause the serious health problems that they now know they do cause. Perfume is not a carcinogen, cigarettes are. People suffer and die from the effects of these things. That should fall under the governments responsibility of protecting LIFE. Period. Protecting someone's right to convenience is not as important as protecting their right to LIFE. I firmly believe this and I also believe that it does not violate the principles of this project if looked at in that manner.
I hope you continue to read because alot of interesting things have come out of this thread.
You are right that I am not ready, it would be a disservice to everyone who is serious (and I don't think everyone is) to sign when I have so many questions and doubts.

Doubts are fine. But WHERE do you get the notion of "government's responsibility to protect life" ??? Holy canoli, heaven forbid. The only thing the government has a responsibility to protect is itself. Even the Founders wrote it so that it said you have the right to PURSUE life, liberty, and happiness.

Government has no responsbility to you - it is the other way around. That is one of our biggest problems - we have no way of holding our government responsible today, its bigger and stronger than anyone ever imagined. You work 1/3 of the year for your government - is that worth all of the protection you get from your government - 1/3 of your life? Did they do anything to protect you today? The guy next to you in line at the grocery could kill you with a frozen steak. How does the government's responsbility to protect your life work into that one?

Ok, so you don't want to debate the cig issue any longer when it becomes more difficult to debate. I'm ok with that. Lets talk about your ideas of what the government really does for you, what you think it does, and what its supposed to do.
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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2003, 12:17:33 pm »

It's not that it's a difficult debate, I simply have had enough (if you have read the earlier posts) and I am unwavering in my opinion.
Yes I believe that the government has the responsibility to do everything in it's power to protect the lives of it's citizens. That is why we have stop lights, jails etc...countries that don't have governments who actively protect the lives of their citizens are called third world countries.
Mr. Bass
I'm a little disappointed that you haven't come back to defend your mail order brides. I am dying to hear this one!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2003, 12:19:49 pm by onein98percent »
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onyx_goddess

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2003, 12:22:55 pm »

Regardless of what our government has become, it is still the job of any government to "protect life".  By that, I mean prevent one person from using force to injure another person.

If my neighbor takes a gun and starts shooting vaguely in my direction there's an x% chance a bullet will hit me, causing me injury.

If my neighbor takes a cigarette and starts smoking it around my child, next to the property line, there is an x% chance some carcinogenics will hit him, causing some injury.

I think that sums up the "protects life"/smoking issue.

The debate is over two issues - externalities and ownership:

1- (Externalities): When there's an externality such as cigarette smoke from a neighbor, or smoke from a factory, who is going to do something about it?
2 - (Ownership): When you scrimp and save your money for 20 years to start up a bar called "Smokeys' Den of Cigars and Whiskey", and then the government bans smoking in all bars, is that really fair?

Also, I wonder, what percentage of FSP members are really "ready" by some reasonable standard?  What does "ready" mean?  There's got to be some minimum amount of readiness.  Like, what if I'm ready to move to the Free State, and always vote libertarian, even if I'm not 100% sure about some libertarian philosophy.  Am I ready?  If not, what harm is there in me joining?
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Jack Harrison

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2003, 12:29:58 pm »

Regardless of what our government has become, it is still the job of any government to "protect life".  By that, I mean prevent one person from using force to injure another person.

How does the government prevent this, exactly? I mean, it happens every single day, everywhere in this country. Where is the prevention you mention?

If my neighbor takes a gun and starts shooting vaguely in my direction there's an x% chance a bullet will hit me, causing me injury.

If my neighbor takes a cigarette and starts smoking it around my child, next to the property line, there is an x% chance some carcinogenics will hit him, causing some injury.

I think that sums up the "protects life"/smoking issue.

I TOTALLY disagree. If someone starts shooting all around you and you get hit and killed, how has the government protected your life? Can you reasonably make an argument that someone should have been there to prevent it. Can you seriously make a post on the FSP board that suggests if the government had confiscated the gun it would not have happened?

The debate is over two issues - externalities and ownership:

1- (Externalities): When there's an externality such as cigarette smoke from a neighbor, or smoke from a factory, who is going to do something about it?

YOU and your neighbors should do something about it. Burn the place down if they won't listen to you. We call that Island Justice where I'm from.

2 - (Ownership): When you scrimp and save your money for 20 years to start up a bar called "Smokeys' Den of Cigars and Whiskey", and then the government bans smoking in all bars, is that really fair?

Nope. Not in the least.

Also, I wonder, what percentage of FSP members are really "ready" by some reasonable standard?  What does "ready" mean?  There's got to be some minimum amount of readiness.  Like, what if I'm ready to move to the Free State, and always vote libertarian, even if I'm not 100% sure about some libertarian philosophy.  Am I ready?  If not, what harm is there in me joining?

If you're not ready, neither am I. I would never call myself a Libertarian. Too close to socialism for me.
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onein98percent

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2003, 12:38:58 pm »

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2 - (Ownership): When you scrimp and save your money for 20 years to start up a bar called "Smokeys' Den of Cigars and Whiskey", and then the government bans smoking in all bars, is that really fair?
There's so much going on I haven't had a chance to leave my computer!
To respond to this...As everyone has been telling me about the pregnancy and smoking and fairness, it's not about what's fair. I believe that we have the right to LIFE, first and foremost. If the man who scrimps and saves is endangering our lives then the govt. has a responsibility to step in and say no more. If it was not deadly, just annoying, I would agree that the government would have no reason to say anything at all.
I would also like to address the issue of the cost to consumers by having safety laws. The expression goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It costs more for companies to settle lawsuits than it does to comply with laws that prevent illness, injury or death.
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