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Author Topic: Interested but have a question  (Read 19261 times)

Stumpy

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2003, 12:44:41 pm »

I am not trying to be argumentative, I am really curious about these things because this has to be a society where everyone can prosper and enjoy happiness and freedom, not just upper classes.
Sure.

I have a close friend who makes his employer very uncomfortable. His employer tolerates him because he is an exemplary employee. He understands the job and makes his company money.

I’ve found that employers usually make allowances to keep employees who do a good job and have a good attitude.

There are two routes to job security.
1) Make yourself very valuable to your employer
2) Enact laws to tie the hands of your employer
I believe option number 1 to be the only one consistent with the principles of limited government and freedom.   :)

Of course, you can always start your own company and become the employer. But beware! In some states, employing someone is very close to adopting them.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2003, 01:15:56 pm by Doug(stumpy) »
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Radar

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2003, 01:25:21 pm »

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I agree however, that I knew they smoked in this bar before I started but after I became pregnant, everything changed.

If everything changed and you were uncomfortable with the smoke at your job, you should have gone to another bar, or another profession.  

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He has very liberal views on many issues and when I said the words free state project, he envisioned a compound full of anti government militants carrying m-16s

The free state project probably isn't for him.  Liberals are opposed to personal responsibility, private ownership, and personal protection.  This is clearly aparent in his attitude against the NRA.

As far as funding goes, a project like this doesn't require too much funding.  Everyone will cover their own moving costs.  But some individuals donate to the FSP to cover costs.

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Thankfully, the laws protect me against being fired for being pregnant which leads me to another question...if I were living in a free state, would there be labor laws?

Pregnancy is your personal choice.  Why should you be protected for making a choice that makes you less available to work?  If I had a pregnant woman working for me, I'd pay her less than the other employees even if she had the same qualifications because she'll miss days from work and others will have to take up the slack, etc.  and if she bothered my patrons and told them to put out their ciggarettes, I'd fire her on the spot regardless of what the law says about smoking.

When you take a job, you and an employer are agreeing that you'll work under the conditions he has at his place, that you'll be there to work, and that you'll get an agreed upon salary.  If you violate your end of the contract, why should he stick to his end?

There are many states that are "right to work" states which means an employer can fire you for any reason or no reason at all and the employee can leave for any reason or no reason.  I'm sure the free state will be one of these because it's what is mutually best for both parties.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2003, 01:36:11 pm »

The more regulations you put on the hiring and firing process, the more costly and risky you make it for an employer to hire someone.  When you make it costly and risky to hire someone, fewer people get hired - unemployment rises.  The French are beginning to discover this.  Their laws are even worse than ours, including a mandated 35-hour work week.  Their unemployment rate is also out of control, and urban crime is rising there.
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elginx

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2003, 03:37:49 pm »

 
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If everything changed and you were uncomfortable with the smoke at your job, you should have gone to another bar, or another profession.
I had not planned on continuing the debate on the smoking issue but I find your post very offensive. As you state below, YOU would not hire a pregnant woman so why would any other employer when a woman comes to them and asks for a job after being fired from her previous employer for being pregnant? So the woman who becomes pregnant has no right to  employment according to you. I'm afraid that most women would disagree with you and would also find your position offensive.
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Pregnancy is your personal choice.  Why should you be protected for making a choice that makes you less available to work?
I could go on forever about this but I will just say that it is not always a choice, sometimes it is un planned. More importantly, if women didn't make that "choice" then you wouldn't be here.
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If I had a pregnant woman working for me, I'd pay her less than the other employees even if she had the same qualifications because she'll miss days from work and others will have to take up the slack, etc.  and if she bothered my patrons and told them to put out their ciggarettes, I'd fire her on the spot regardless of what the law says about smoking.
Proving my point again that regardless of what kind of employee this person is, you would fire them based solely on the fact that they are pregnant. This in particular is extremely offensive to me because I support my family on my salary and I am also a good mother who is concerned about the welfare of her child. I should NOT have to make the choice between the LIFE of my child and the ability to support myself and my family without being a welfare recipient.
The comment that you would pay a pregnant woman less because she will miss more work is an assuption and is heinous. Who says that she will miss any more work than the next guy who might have a hangover 3 days a week, or the guy who gets diagnosed with cancer (especially working in your smoky dream bar) or the woman who has sick children. Humanity cannot be lost in this search for freedom and just hoping that the right thing will be done isn't enough.( No one has responded to what happens to the elderly, pregnant, disabled, individuals stricken by illness or accidents in the family etc... with no employment protection and no welfare)
(Jason to respond to your post, I do agree that there is such a thing as going overboard with anything, but completely eliminating all protection doesn't seem right...have you considered ways to limit it?)
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When you take a job, you and an employer are agreeing that you'll work under the conditions he has at his place, that you'll be there to work, and that you'll get an agreed upon salary.  If you violate your end of the contract, why should he stick to his end?

So when you have the flu and you have to take time off, you are violating the contract? Be realistic. Your attitude is discriminatory against this specific issue of pregnancy and this is exactly the problem I have with letting people who have no conscience run things.  Of course you don't care because it will NEVER happen to you!
and by the way, since you got personal and said you would fire me if you owned the establishment where I work, you should know that I am the only employee who doesn't take off work or call in sick and I am the only employee who consistently covers for people who call in sick. Unfortunately, I think if the matter of the law did not exist, the only reason my boss would keep me employed is because the sales at the end of the night are good. Why? Because men are uncomfortable with pregnant women and judging from your comments, have little respect for what it takes to bring them into world happy and healthy.
I actually feel ill right now, and very disappointed that the world I envisioned when I read about the project isn't the reality. I guess I have a lot more thinking to do before I commit myself to this project.
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Radar

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2003, 04:45:48 pm »

I find your post offensive as well.  Nobody is entitled to special treatment simply because they've chosen to have kids.  And yes, if you are having a child it is because you chose to.  Even if you're raped, you can choose to not have the child.  

Why should employers be forced to hire people who will miss more time from work? (and yes pregnant women miss more time from work than a man with a hangover...typically several months after they have the child).  This isn't an assumption, it's a fact.  The reason women don't typically make it as high in companies as most men is because they choose to have children and can't devote the long hours to work that a man can.

I'm all about meritocracy.  I don't care if someone is a man or a woman.  I reward performance and if a woman gets pregnant and pisses off my customers by telling them they can't smoke, she'll find herself unemployed.  If a man missed work because he chose to stay home and help his sick mother, and chased away my regulars because he decided he didn't like smoke, I'd treat him the same way.  I wouldn't be firing the person because they were pregnant, I'd be firing them for missing work, and annoying my customers.

Typically employers make allowances for sick days, but not sick months.  And it's not fair or reasonable to expect an employer to keep your job waiting for you while you take several months off to care for a child you CHOSE to have.

You remind me of the people who inconsiderately bring their noisy children to the movies or nice restaurants where they don't belong.  You expect everyone else to conform to your wishes and whims and ignore what's best for their business.  

If you don't like what's on television, change the channel.  If you don't like smoke in a bar, don't work in one.  If you don't like being paid less for being pregnant, don't get pregnant or come to work the day after you give birth.

Those that demand special treatment for their own personal choices are offensive to me and disgust me.  

I love children and want to have some of my own.  But I wouldn't expect to be paid the same money if I missed a lot of work because of them.  And I wouldn't expect my employer to chase away his loyal customers because I suddenly didn't like the smoke anymore.  



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Dalamar49

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2003, 05:33:51 pm »

G'day, Elginx.

I hope you haven't left yet. In answer to your question about labor laws. I think that the Free State Project will be taking it slowly. We'll see what works and go from there instead of throwing the state into anarchy in one day.

Sadly, our world has disrepectful employers who'll endanger their employees and fire workers for unfair reasons. That's why consumers need to regulate businesses by refusing to shop or eat at businesses that practice discrimitory behaviors.

So instead of the government forcing employers into submission it'll be us the customers of the Free State who'll police our communties and boycott businesses and employers who warrant punishment.

Thank you for your interest in the Free State Project. I hope to see you, your husband and children there someday.
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elginx

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2003, 06:24:45 pm »

IYou remind me of the people who inconsiderately bring their noisy children to the movies or nice restaurants where they don't belong.  You expect everyone else to conform to your wishes and whims and ignore what's best for their business.  
Obviously you don't have children.  I suppose people wanting to go out to eat with their children is  your idea of a violation of YOUR "individual freedoms" (by the way, all kids are noisy, yours will be too) My problem with you, and with what has been discussed is that yes, you have rights, employers have rights, but so do I, so do employees, WOMEN, elderly, handicapped.We all have equal rights and why is some joe's right to smoke in a bar more important than my child's right to life? Why is your comfort in a movie or restaraunt more important than my right to have dinner with my family? Who choses who's rights are more important or valid than others. God forbid that it's you or someone like you.
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I love children and want to have some of my own.  But I wouldn't expect to be paid the same money if I missed a lot of work because of them.  And I wouldn't expect my employer to chase away his loyal customers because I suddenly didn't like the smoke anymore.
Maybe there is a woman in this country who would be willing to overlook your sexist attitudes and sacrifice so much to provide you with an offspring but if someday you find her, pray that you never get laid off, or killed and she has to be the sole breadwinner for the family. It is very easy to make statements like yours when you have never had to protect and provide for someone who's life means more than your own. This is a guess, but you don't seem like the kind of person who has ever experienced anything even remotely close to suffering, or struggle, and therefore your attitude doesn't surprise me.

Dalamar

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I hope you haven't left yet. In answer to your question about labor laws. I think that the Free State Project will be taking it slowly. We'll see what works and go from there instead of throwing the state into anarchy in one day

I appreciate your response to my question. What was began as a serious inquiry about important issues pertaining to labor laws has turned into a sexist and personal attack. Your response is about action and realities, it's not rhetoric about how employers are going to do what's right...because I know all, if not most, won't.  I also agree that throwing everything out the window at once is going to put even the most radical into shock, and that experimentation with different things will be a must.
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So instead of the government forcing employers into submission it'll be us the customers of the Free State who'll police our communties and boycott businesses and employers who warrant punishment.
On this I am curious if there is a plan to establish consumer groups (private or not) or if it is the assumption that this will just miraculously happen. Groups or individuals who try to organize boycotts now are not too successful. I believe that consumer groups in the free state would be more effective than they are now because the people who reside there would obviously not be as apathetic as the general citizenry is now but I don't think they would be effective enough.
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Radar

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2003, 10:05:30 pm »

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Obviously you don't have children.  I suppose people wanting to go out to eat with their children is  your idea of a violation of YOUR "individual freedoms" (by the way, all kids are noisy, yours will be too) My problem with you, and with what has been discussed is that yes, you have rights, employers have rights, but so do I, so do employees, WOMEN, elderly, handicapped.

Actually I have a daughter.  But she's not living with me.  And I didn't say you shouldn't be able to take your kids out to eat, just that most parents with little kids take them to inappropriate places like fancy restaurants.  If you want to take your kids to McDonalds, Chuck E. Cheese, etc. people expect kids.  But if you're in a movie theater or a nice restaurant on a date and someone brings in their misbehaving loud screaming brats those people have no class or consideration of others.  

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We all have equal rights and why is some joe's right to smoke in a bar more important than my child's right to life?

First off the right to life only belongs to those who already possess human life and a fetus does not.  Secondly you don't have a right to not be offended.  And if someone wants to smoke in a bar and the bar owner doesn't mind, it's none of your business.  If you work there and don't like the smoke or don't want to endanger your fetus, you have every right to seek employment elsewhere.

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Why is your comfort in a movie or restaraunt more important than my right to have dinner with my family?

See Above.  I didn't say one person's rights are more important than anothers.  But your right to breath is no more important than someone else's to smoke.  Nor is that of your fetus.  If you don't like smoke-filled bars you are not being forced to work in them or even visit them.

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Maybe there is a woman in this country who would be willing to overlook your sexist attitudes and sacrifice so much to provide you with an offspring but if someday you find her, pray that you never get laid off, or killed and she has to be the sole breadwinner for the family.

There's nothing at all sexist about my attitude.  There is a lot of sexism in your attitude though.  You expect others to bend to your will simply because you're pregnant and a woman.  I'm all about equality and meritocracy while you seem to think women, handicapped people, and others should have special treatment or be held in higher regard than men.  And when I say I'm for 100% equality and meritocracy I mean it.  That means equality not only in freedom but in responsibility.  I am against a draft, but as long as we have one, women should be drafted and sent to the front lines just like men.  And nobody should get paid time off for having a child what-so-ever unless the employer wants to do so on their own.  Having a child is a personal choice and shouldn't entitle you to anything single people without children don't have.

And don't worry about me getting a woman.  I've got an extremely beautiful and intelligent woman who loves me dearly and I love her too.  We're going to be married in February and will have several children.  But I don't expect other people to curb thier habits or actions simply because I have kids.  I am also considerate enough to keep my kids out of a movie theater or a nice restaurant so I don't disturb other people.  

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It is very easy to make statements like yours when you have never had to protect and provide for someone who's life means more than your own.

I was married for 8 and a half years and I protected and provided for my wife.  So once again you don't know what you're talking about.

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This is a guess, but you don't seem like the kind of person who has ever experienced anything even remotely close to suffering, or struggle, and therefore your attitude doesn't surprise me.

My life has been filled with suffering and struggle.  But my struggles don't entitle me to anything.  I'm suffering right now because my daughter is living away from me and I rarely see her.  I've financially struggled my whole life, been the victim of child abuse, etc.  Does that matter?  Is it important to this topic?  Not at all.

You being pregnant doesn't entitle you to any special treatment and you're way off base if you think it does.  

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What was began as a serious inquiry about important issues pertaining to labor laws has turned into a sexist and personal attack

The only sexism is this thread is coming from you.  And I haven't attacked you at all.  All I said was you knew they had smoking before you took the job and it's unreasonable for you to expect people to stop smoking for your comfort level.  Tell me how that is an attack.

I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you rationally and intelligently.  All that needs to happen is for you to speak rationally and intelligently instead of making emotional pleas and unreasonable demands.  Also it would be nice if you'd stop your sexist comments.
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elginx

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2003, 11:02:02 pm »

This is my last visit to this post as I am not interested in hearing your opinions. My last words are these.
1. I don't think it is just a fetus and has no right to life
2. God did not make us equal. Men will never have to experience the burdens or the joys of carrying a child in their bodies for almost an entire year. As you yourself stated, women make less money because of this biological function, and you consider that fair and reasonable.  I am truly sorry to hear that you have a daughter.
  If your wife to be is sharing in this debate, I hope it prompts her to seriously consider exercising her rights to not have children, or at least not with you.
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jgmaynard

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2003, 11:17:04 pm »

I just graduated with a BS in chemsitry, physics and history - all of which applies here.... :) Plus I did a paper on it about a year 1/2 ago...

Yes, cigarette smoke can be irritating, and when directly inhaled, as through a cigarette, can be dangerous.

BUT....

The EPA report which is the centerpiece of the 2nd hand smoke arguments was not a study - It was a meta-analysis; a study of other studies.
They announced their results BEFORE compling their report - This should set off red-alerts to any scientists - that is NOT how good science is done!
After they compiled their results, guess what! The study did NOT prove what they wanted, SO......
The EPA threw away 27 of the 41 studies to arrive at their already-announced results!

Cigarette smoke is made of hundreds of chemicals.... Some will sink, some will float, and some will rise. that means that 2nd hand smoke in a room only contains certain of the chemicals...

Our bodies encounter bad stuff all the time... It is only a matter of how much it can clean up....

I'm not trying to turn you into an anti-smoking ban crusader, but letting you know that the science is NOT cut and dried here... Anyone who tells you that all scientists agree on something, is wrong.

Take a look at http://www.junkscience.com sometime - it is a GREAT site!

Here's an article I wrote on it in 2001.... http://www.keenenh.us/jgm/articles/smoke.html

JM
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BobW

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2003, 11:35:02 pm »

Hi Elginx,

A major flaw in your positions you take is that you frame them only to fit your circumstances.  Try to look at the broader picture.

A pregnant employee is a risk to a business just like a member of the National Guard.  I wrote this yesterday.  Businesses are not cash cows.

Actually, "most women" agree with Radar and me.  Most American women realize the US labor market is in decline and worsening.  The Family Leave Act was another reason for companies to relocate overseas.

If you do some R&D on the various societies of the world for the last 200 years, you will see a relationship between maximum freedom and the prosperity of humanity.

You are wrong in your statement that "(No one has responded to what happens to the ..disabled.."). I explicitely mentioned that I belong  to a private sector organization performing  work efforts to assist -----and I also mentioned we outperform the related state agencies.

Again, Elginx, after you do some R&D, you will understand that workers like yourself, who bring in the business, don't share in this because of government programs stiffling this.  

I personally give you the benefit of the doubt maybe because  you write from California.  The world is neutral.  You are making it negative.  Don't generalize.  What men are uncomfortable with pregnant women?  My crowd in Virginia glorifies this.

If you were here for our upcoming 4th of July picnic, you'd love it.  True, some of the guys and gals smoke.  Many drink beer and you wouldn't be the only pregnant women present.  I guarantee you noone would smoke near you.  You'd be offered chocolate substitutes all day long.  And etc.  And you'd have fun.

That California environment must be distorting things.  Then, again, whatever your situation, you are in better shape than others.

There are picnics in California also. Maybe it's not California but how you are reacting to the world.

BobW
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goon

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2003, 07:40:37 pm »

This thing is kind of getting out of hand.
This person shows up here and checks the FSP out and is pushed away because they have a concern.
I will admit that I am new and that I don't have business telling you guys what to say or how to run your forum, but this doesn't seem like the way to keep interested people interested.
I was in the military, and then I worked construction.
When something doesn't go my way by the third try, I curse like a drunken sailor.
Force of habit coupled with a short temper.
But I do try and stay civil whenever I can.

Elginx- As I have already stated, I hate cigarettes. People who hate cigarettes still have to eat too. You would most likely be able to find a job, but tomorrow is promised to no man.
You place your bet and you play your cards.
The rest of us will also take the same risk as you.
The founders risked getting their necks stretched for liberty but they didn't let that stop them.
I am young, but I have learned that life will never wait for you to get all your ducks in a row. Sometimes you just gotta wing it.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2003, 07:42:33 pm by goon »
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BobW

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2003, 12:41:59 am »

Hi Goon,

Your point is well taken.  I accept it.

The thread in general and my posts were offered to help and not annoy someone or drive them away.  

Elginx posed a situation.  Replies were presented.  

When stuff gets rough to the point of insult, attack, etc, many here jump in and correct.

BobW
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onyx_goddess

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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2003, 05:49:39 am »

This thread is definitely disturbing.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Radar said in his last long post.

However, it's pretty clear we just lost a potential member, so something went wrong.  Maybe that's inevitable, but maybe not.  Several times I've wondered if this thread should be moderated strictly like the religion thread.  After all, if potentials are routed here, then this spot should be potential-friendly.

Now, some might argue that elginx isn't a liberty lover after all.  But I'd argue that she's like a lot of Americans - complacent with the status quo, but open to being educated about freedom.  I have had very similar discussions about smoking in restaurants, and for some reason that's a hard one to grasp right away for complacents.

There's an episode of King of the Hill where Hank explains his technique for selling more propane than all the other salespeople.  He educates his customer, and then lets then go home and make the right decision for themselves.  I think that's what went wrong.  Sometimes debating a point with someone can't do any good.  It's best to lay the cards out on the table in a clear, but gentle manner, and then let them go home and think about it.
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Re:Interested but have a question
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2003, 08:33:43 am »


Now, some might argue that elginx isn't a liberty lover after all.


That is correct, she is not.

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  But I'd argue that she's like a lot of Americans - complacent with the status quo


That is correct.
We will never ever ever persuade the vast majority of Americans to have libertarian views.  And we ought not to.  They like the State, and that is their choice.  We must remove ourselves from their tyranny and free up a small area where we ourselves are Free.  And not worry about how the Statists are doing.  Who knows, maybe they will survive.  Or not.  Who cares.

I believe it was in Heinlein's Glory Road that a character describes a project he is involved in, which gathers up democrats when they are discovered and dumps them on this one planet.  The project has been going on for a couple of hundred years, and occasionally there is talk of dropping in to see how they're doing, but no one bothers.

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It's best to lay the cards out on the table in a clear, but gentle manner, and then let them go home and think about it.


That is correct.  And that is what happened here.  And she, like 98% of Americans, found our views distasteful.
That is no reason to change our views, or to pretend that they are not our views.

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