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Author Topic: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories  (Read 64856 times)

Alex Libman

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2011, 11:50:06 am »






You have to scream pretty loud to distract people from the fact that you don't have anything resembling a coherent scientific argument...


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JasonPSorens

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2011, 09:33:26 pm »

Evidence for human-caused climate change keeps strengthening:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/despite-rick-perry-consensus-on-climate-change-keeps-strengthening/2011/08/23/gIQAMT3UZJ_blog.html?wprss=ezra-klein

In 2010, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences published a survey of 1,372 climate researchers, finding that 97 to 98 percent of those publishing in the field said they believe humans are causing global warming. That’s the same majority that existed in a similar 2009 survey. Dissenters do exist, the PNAS study found, but “the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced … are substantially below that of the convinced researchers.”
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Alex Libman

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2011, 01:33:35 am »

Jason,

It's very sad to consider what statements like the one above will do to the credibility of your other publications...

You said "EVIDENCE keeps strengthening", and you backed that up with an opinion poll among self-selected environmentalists who depend on the climate catastrophe religion for their livelihood and self-esteem!  That is about as logical as surveying the Vatican for "evidence" of existence of God!

Actual evidence that the Earth has warmed in the past would involve providing conclusive and verifiable DATA that shows temperature change that is greater than the margin of error.  They don't have that, and they don't like to talk about it.  They want it to be a great mystery religion that only a divinely appointed few could ever understand.  They will beat their chests, they will insult you, they will accuse you of murder, they will play sad music and show you cartoons of children drowning, but when it comes to the accuracy and verifiability of actual numbers...  We're expected to accept their claims as a matter of blind faith.

Evidence that the change is anthropogenic and not natural would at this point require sending temperature measuring equipment back in time, since during that time the human civilization had failed to accurately measure the multiple overlapping natural cycles that affect this planet and this solar system.  Real scientists know when to say "we don't know".

Providing evidence that their solutions are less harmful would come next.  All their environmental laws have done so far is outsource manufacturing from the "first world" to less regulated countries like China, so they would need to take much more drastic measures in order to make a significant difference.  How does one exactly measure the potential harm of a tyrannical world government?  Throughout human history it was intergovernmental competition that provided an objective frame of reference for how governments performed, and allowed gradual evolution to take place.  Communism failed because it couldn't hide its inferiority relative to the West, but what if the whole world was in the same boat?  This could clip the wings of the human civilization indefinitely...

As technology advances, the human race will inevitably move energy production and manufacturing into space, solving the pollution issue once and for all.  But something needs to fuel the economy in the meantime.  What the environmental wackos are pushing is akin to trying to lose weight by cutting out your liver!
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rossby

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2011, 03:03:31 am »

You said "EVIDENCE keeps strengthening", and you backed that up with an opinion poll among self-selected environmentalists who depend on the climate catastrophe religion for their livelihood and self-esteem!  That is about as logical as surveying the Vatican for "evidence" of existence of God!

The articles says consensus, not evidence.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2011, 08:10:36 am »

Climate scientists, not environmentalists. & if you look at the whole article, it discusses the increasing confidence researchers have in assigning the global rise in temperatures to human forcings.

But Rush Limbaugh says it's a hoax, so it must be.
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MaineShark

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2011, 11:32:02 am »

Climate scientists, not environmentalists. & if you look at the whole article, it discusses the increasing confidence researchers have in assigning the global rise in temperatures to human forcings.

So, folks whose entire field of study - their entire life's work - their ability to earn a paycheck without doing honest work - is based upon saying a particular thing... will say that particular thing?

In other shocking news, water has been found to be wet.

If it's not falsifiable, it's not science.  And the "evidence" for AGW is not falsifiable.  So, it's religious dogma, not science.

Joe
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2011, 01:40:24 pm »

Climate science existed long before AGW was discovered. It's grown since, precisely because the discovery has made it a more interesting & attractive field to scientists. Isn't this argument just the flip side of the "AGW deniers are funded by Big Oil" contention? Of course climate science is falsifiable. You can't get a paper published in any scientific field if you neither develop nor test a hypothesis.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2011, 03:02:08 pm »

Climate scientists, not environmentalists.

They choose to study climate science - a field that has relatively limited prospects in the private sector.  This comprises significant selection bias that affects their objectivity.  Arguments for environmental alarmism constituting an imperative for government force should be based in impartial application of scientific principles, not an opinion poll among political hacks who scream "science" the loudest.  Show me the data.


if you look at the whole article, it discusses the increasing confidence researchers have in assigning the global rise in temperatures to human forcings.

They must have had a very convincing tarot card reading, because there is no scientific basis to justify their beliefs.

And, when you actually look at the details of how the questions are framed, you'll almost always find political bias - bait and switch tactics, moving the goalposts, etc.  The question isn't whether the human civilization produces some heat (ex. urban warming) - all matter in the universe does.  The question isn't whether indefinite pollution growth would eventually cause a problem.  The question isn't whether people who create pollution liabilities shouldn't have to pay for them (and, at present, it's usually the government that protects them).  The question isn't whether they like smelling flowers more than exhaust pipes.  Etc, etc, etc.  The question is whether the governmental violence that is being pushed through on the basis of environmental claims is justified.

Most people are instinctively biased toward primitivism - "tree good, SUV bad".  Mis-framing the question is so easy and so tempting...  Skepticism of global warming has been marketed to be on par with young-earth creationism, and it takes some degree of courage and strength to swim against that ideological current.  This isn't the hill that most people want to die on - thus the distortion proliferates.


But Rush Limbaugh says it's a hoax, so it must be.

Rush Limbaugh isn't on my radar.  I strive to base my opinions on pure reason, whenever it is humanly possible to do so.  (Although, I must admit, my humanity is quite an anchor...)
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swamp_yankee

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2011, 04:27:34 pm »

Climate science existed long before AGW was discovered. It's grown since, precisely because the discovery has made it a more interesting & attractive field to scientists. Isn't this argument just the flip side of the "AGW deniers are funded by Big Oil" contention? Of course climate science is falsifiable. You can't get a paper published in any scientific field if you neither develop nor test a hypothesis.


Dick Lindzen is a climatologist, a great one. One of many refuting and challenging AGW. Of course, they are suppressed. But they exist in large numbers if you look.

The issue isn’t the science, it the remedies. The Green movement roots are in collectivism; its exploited by disingenuous intellectuals to expand the powers of the state and international law.

Just go back and look at claims made ten and five years ago, they've already been disproven. Al Gore's movie is so foolish it looks like a parody. The fact they keep revising their data, models and predictions is a tacit admission that the data, models and predictions are not, and never have been, settled. Remember, the used to say the "consensus" agreed, and the science is "settled" - but that has proven to be bunk.

Lindzen:

http://youtu.be/i1CR0v7dwXU

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MaineShark

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2011, 07:11:03 pm »

Climate science existed long before AGW was discovered. It's grown since, precisely because the discovery has made it a more interesting & attractive field to scientists.

Yeah, you just "discover" some major catastrophe that requires more researchers and more funding, and suddenly it's a more "interesting & attractive field."

Isn't this argument just the flip side of the "AGW deniers are funded by Big Oil" contention?

No.  "Big oil" could not fund everyone who denies the nonsense that is AGW.  There are too many.  It would require a conspiracy of monumental proportions.  Since those supporting that nonsense are self-perpetuating, there's no conspiracy theory needed; they act as they do, because it is automatically in their own interest to act that way.  Confirmation bias can do what conspiracies could not hope to achieve.

Of course climate science is falsifiable. You can't get a paper published in any scientific field if you neither develop nor test a hypothesis.

I've yet to read one where they actually developed and tested any hypothesis that was not entirely circular.  "According to our models, our models show that X, which matches what we previously modeled, using our models."  That's not science.  At best, it would be a poor grade of engineering.

Scientists go into things without biases.  No one goes into "climate science" these days, unless s/he is strongly biased in support of the AGW mythos.  You don't decide what the answer will be, then select only those data which support it, and call it "science."

Joe
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2011, 10:17:16 pm »

The basic science meets the criteria.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 10:41:33 pm by John Edward Mercier »
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #86 on: August 27, 2011, 07:45:14 am »

The only reason AGW skeptics get any press at all is that thinktanks funded by Big Oil and politicians from oil states always parade them out to support their claims. Yes, there are dissenters in climate science, but not many. There are always dissenters in any line of scientific inquiry; there are incentives to be a dissenter. It's a way to make a name for yourself in the field, even if your theories don't end up working out. And it's good for science for there to be dissenters. So AGW isn't as certain as, say, the heliocentric solar system, but the only reasonable conclusion for anyone who hasn't read the scientific literature (BTW, I have) is that it's very likely.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

MaineShark

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #87 on: August 27, 2011, 08:02:59 am »

The basic science meets the criteria.

Yes, and what basic science exists, says that we're heading out of a glacial period, and temperatures are warming at a rate concomitant with that.

The basic science also says that the minuscule levels of carbon dioxide (etc.) produced by humans are insignificant within the climate; homeopathy makes as much scientific sense as AGW.

You know, someone should do a survey and find out, statistically speaking, whether those who support AGW also support other pseudoscience, like tarot, astrology, homeopathy, Freudian psychoanalysis, those HHO systems for cars, et cetera.  I theorize that those who will believe in AGW, despite it's clear inability to qualify as real science, do so because they lack the skill/ability to properly test (by logical analysis) whether something is or is not scientific, so there should be a positive correlation between belief in AGW, and belief in other forms of pseudoscience.

Joe
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MaineShark

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #88 on: August 27, 2011, 08:03:52 am »

So AGW isn't as certain as, say, the heliocentric solar system, but the only reasonable conclusion for anyone who hasn't read the scientific literature (BTW, I have) is that it's very likely.
[emphasis added]

Quoted for truth.

Joe
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Climategate & Global Warming is a Hoax news stories
« Reply #89 on: August 28, 2011, 12:27:41 am »

The basic science meets the criteria.

Yes, and what basic science exists, says that we're heading out of a glacial period, and temperatures are warming at a rate concomitant with that.

The basic science also says that the minuscule levels of carbon dioxide (etc.) produced by humans are insignificant within the climate; homeopathy makes as much scientific sense as AGW.

You know, someone should do a survey and find out, statistically speaking, whether those who support AGW also support other pseudoscience, like tarot, astrology, homeopathy, Freudian psychoanalysis, those HHO systems for cars, et cetera.  I theorize that those who will believe in AGW, despite it's clear inability to qualify as real science, do so because they lack the skill/ability to properly test (by logical analysis) whether something is or is not scientific, so there should be a positive correlation between belief in AGW, and belief in other forms of pseudoscience.

Joe
Insignificance makes no difference. Any amount attributed to humans would be anthropogenic. Its the applied science that is in question.
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