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Author Topic: NH vs WY  (Read 176962 times)

Blain

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Re:New Hampshire vs. Wyoming – Self Defense Laws?
« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2003, 04:26:36 pm »

Hmmm, I wonder if there are any cases where one has shot another in defense of property??
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Re:New Hampshire vs. Wyoming – Self Defense Laws?
« Reply #91 on: June 05, 2003, 06:16:35 pm »

Hmmm, I wonder if there are any cases where one has shot another in defense of property??

Just remember to holler at 'em and get 'em to look at you before you shoot 'em.  Then say you feared for your life.  ;) ;D
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LeRuineur6

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Re:NH vs WY - Venture Capital Investments
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2003, 03:51:37 pm »

Yes, I agree about the vouchers.  I just had to do a little more research into them to see the libertarian perspective.

Quote
Seems to me, freedom has historically happened where there aren't huge numbers of people, lots of business going on. Somewhat marginal areas. ... So the fact that NH is relatively free seems somewhat of an anomaly.

This is true.  NH's ability to remain relatively free is difficult to explain.  But in a few days, some research will be released which may answer your questions about how this is happening.

Quote
FSP is not a program to get neat jobs for 20,000 people. It is to get a state free. It is expected that some effort and inconvenience will be experienced to do so; among those things might be a career change or a cut in pay. Oh, well.

You've got to be kidding.  You sound like people can change the entire purpose of their lives without blinking, as though the FSP is some sort of military recruitment.  Richard Winger sums up the doubts of many about taking tremendous risks for the FSP:

"It's fun to theorize but then it gets to selling your house," said Richard Winger, a libertarian and editor of Ballot Access News, a publication on ballot laws and regulations.

"I can't see mass migration," he said.


http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/libertarian_state030604.html

Some doubt our ability to change the state.  Some doubt our ability to migrate.  But migrating to NH, with a vibrant globalized "New Economy" should be magnitudes easier than migrating to WY, at least in my opinion.

The job issue isn't about "neat jobs" or living in the "New New New Economy".  It's about risk and return.

The risk of moving to NH is lower than WY (high-tech jobs, entrepreneurship, globalization, vibrant economy for small businesses) and the return on investment (freedom) will be even greater in NH than in WY (the libertarian culture in NH has already made it one of the most free, globalized, advanced states in the union without resorting to taxation to pay for it, unlike other states).

You want to "show the world what can be done," but you don't seem to realize how important small business growth is to that equation.

In addition, you seem to think the WY population will just love us to death.  But will they?

Environmental Working Group - Farm Subsidy Database
http://www.ewg.org/farm/home.php

WY's 1996-2001 Farming Subsidies:  $104,991,664
WY's 1996-2001 Conservation Programs:  $62,773,774
WY's 1996-2001 Disaster Payments:  $29,787,334
USDA subsidies for farms in Wyoming totalled $197,552,771 from 1996 through 2001.

Compare that to NH:  USDA subsidies for farms in New Hampshire totalled $15,234,415 from 1996 through 2001.  That's 13-times less than WY.  So you'll have 13-times more angry farmers in WY when they find out that we want to end corporate welfare.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2003, 03:54:21 pm by LeRuineur6 »
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Stumpy

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Re:NH vs WY - Venture Capital Investments
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2003, 04:13:28 pm »

Does anyone know where NH’s corporate tax was discussed? ???
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Re:NH vs WY - Venture Capital Investments
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2003, 03:21:42 am »

Yes, I agree about the vouchers.  I just had to do a little more research into them to see the libertarian perspective.

Quote
FSP is not a program to get neat jobs for 20,000 people. It is to get a state free. It is expected that some effort and inconvenience will be experienced to do so; among those things might be a career change or a cut in pay. Oh, well.

You've got to be kidding.  You sound like people can change the entire purpose of their lives without blinking, as though the FSP is some sort of military recruitment.  

Well, then the FSP is only a program to get 19,999 people jobs.  I can get my own job (in any state), just fine.  All I need is my hands, feet, and head and I am fine.  Drop me off in Nome AK, Mitchell SD, Moscow ID, Miles City MT, or Caribou ME.  I will find a job that allows me to save 20% of my pre-tax income in any of these little towns.  

If I am the only one that moves, so be it.  I will have moved to be more free and it will have worked.  I've moved many times and it never costs me much money.

Yeah, and I've done the military thing also.
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BobW

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Re:NH vs WY - Venture Capital Investments
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2003, 04:04:33 am »

Hi LeRuineur6,

You'd be correct if the issue was "change the entire purpose of their lives."  Many here, from my readings, seek to RETAIN the purpose of our lives.  I'm researching a move "out west' and view this major project as an enhancement and not a "tremendous risk".  

I'm not researching a move to Nunavut, Canada but rather to some high-quality areas "out west".  Relocating efforts are "front-end-loaded", ie whether moving across town, across the state, to a different state or overseas (I've done all, many times each) requires similiar efforts, time and funding, with the initial segment common to all moves somewhat equal in cost.

That Richard Winger quote isn't valid.  It is difficult to theorize.  I did not say "daydream".  To theorize takes work and time.  Selling a house for an FSP project isn't really different than selling it for a company relocation, a retirement, etc.  Here, too, it's not to be viewed as fun but rather a work effort.

If Richard Winger can't see mass migration, he is probably correct.  He probably missed or never studied the reverse migration of blacks from the Rust Belt to Atlanta, Californians to Colorado and Idaho, etc.

I write from the Mid-Atlantic South and when I advertised in the US, every week I'd receive 10-20 unsolicited resumes from the Northeast from people seeking to move, knowing about less pay, etc in the South.  

What is there to "change" in a selected state?  NH need reinforcements for preexisting programs; not producers of doctrine.  Ditto Wyoming and Montana.

Discussed here is not Mindinao Island, Commonwealth of the Phillippines, circa 1910.

Other than personal preferences, what's different between NH and WY?  There are small businesses throughout the West.  There are not enough, though.

A personal example ref will the Wyoming population "love us to death?"  My research says "YES".  Just to transfer my memberships from a few organizations to Wyoming will actually keep me too busy with people holding the same values - and also same interests - that I hold.  

I'm not even alluding to the political organizations yet.  

Comparing those USG disbursements to WY and NH is really not germane.  It's like social security.  The individual (and many businesses) rather keep their earned money than wait for a fractional return via disaster payments, etc.

Corporate welfare will contract regardless of any actions or neglect by any citizen here.  It will remain however.  A major reason is that people don't participate in the political processes such as attending regulatory meetings, hearings, and on  and on.

BobW
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Robert H.

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Re:NH vs WY - Venture Capital Investments
« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2003, 07:36:48 am »

You've got to be kidding.  You sound like people can change the entire purpose of their lives without blinking, as though the FSP is some sort of military recruitment.  Richard Winger sums up the doubts of many about taking tremendous risks for the FSP:

"It's fun to theorize but then it gets to selling your house," said Richard Winger, a libertarian and editor of Ballot Access News, a publication on ballot laws and regulations.

"I can't see mass migration," he said.


http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/libertarian_state030604.html

Some doubt our ability to change the state.  Some doubt our ability to migrate.  But migrating to NH, with a vibrant globalized "New Economy" should be magnitudes easier than migrating to WY, at least in my opinion.

When it comes to migration, the biggest problem we face is that some of our members will either bow out entirely or fudge on their committment to activism.  This could happen no matter what state is chosen, for any number of reasons.

The question is then, "where does this problem do us less potential harm?"  

To succeed in a higher population state (particularly as concerns voting-age population), we must have more members, more of them will have to follow through on the move, and more of them will have to turn out to be genuine political activists.  If we encounter issues in any one or more of these three areas, the FSP could face failure in the chosen state.

More people may be willing to move to New Hampshire (for whatever reason), but the fact of the matter is that New Hampshire's size will expose the FSP to the above three issues to a much greater degree than in Wyoming.  More factors that we cannot rely upon will have to work in our favor to succeed there because the hurdle we'll be expected to jump will be higher.  Not as high as in a more statist state like Maine or Vermont, but higher than other states.

I'm a reasonably optimistic person, but I've learned enough of human history and behavior to understand that the more you rely upon large groups of people to get something done, the less likely it is to get done.  That is one of the reasons why I do not encourage the FSP to take such a gamble when the stakes are so high.  It would be different if there were no liberty-friendly small population states; then we would have no choice but to locate in a higher population state.  But that is not the case here.  Wyoming is quite liberty-friendly, and its smaller population exposes us to fewer of the risks involved in an effort that depends so heavily upon people moving and becoming real political activists in order to achieve success.

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Re:NH vs WY - Venture Capital Investments
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2003, 04:02:36 am »

Quote
You've got to be kidding.  You sound like people can change the entire purpose of their lives without blinking, as though the FSP is some sort of military recruitment.  Richard Winger sums up the doubts of many about taking tremendous risks for the FSP:

"It's fun to theorize but then it gets to selling your house," said Richard Winger, a libertarian and editor of Ballot Access News, a publication on ballot laws and regulations.

You know, sometimes it hits me, how trivial the thing it is we are asking of people, compared to (for example) what people did just 140 years ago to come to Oregon.

Look, if you find it beyond your ken to put your house on the market (something I've done about every 3 years), hop in your car and move to a state that already has all the conveniences and infrastructure ready for you, and leave your job for another one - well, I'm sorry, you're just not "freedom material" (and neither is Winger).

Hey, you move there and it doesn't work out for you? Hop in the car and move back. The personal risk in Wyoming is a little bit higher than in NH, but in both cases it is just tiny. I'm sorry, one can blow things out of proportion.

The risk to the project is of course less in Wyoming, that's the main attraction of the state. Wyoming is essentially risk-free (except for Joe's usual concerns) compared to all other states. There is no fallback disaster possible with it, and it can take a huge hit on recruitment and still work.

And the people we do recruit, if we fall short, will be the serious ones, not the Sunday activists.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2003, 04:05:26 am by Zxcv »
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LeRuineur6

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Re:NH vs WY - Venture Capital Investments
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2003, 11:39:44 am »

Here's a little more information about WY's Federal dependency problem I was talking about earlier written by Walter E. Williams, an economics professor at George Mason University in Fairfax, VA.

(Walter Williams) also noted that New Hampshire is less dependent on the federal government than are states with vast federal lands.

In addition, Williams cited the "spirit of the people of New Hampshire." He said they radiate "a little more independent," and are viewed as "highly skilled."

"People who want to work, combined with liberty, that’s what makes a state rich," Williams said.


http://freestateproject.org/media_archives/0004.htm
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LeRuineur6

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Re:NH vs WY - Venture Capital Investments
« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2003, 12:37:50 pm »

Quote
And the people we do recruit, if we fall short, will be the serious ones, not the Sunday activists.

You can take that extreme perspective, or you can realize that we are all human beings with hopes and dreams, not machines.  With me, for example, my activism toward the success of freedom and the FSP is one of my two main personal goals in life along with my business.  Ultra-activists like me are just as important as "Sunday activists" like those in my community who volunteer to work on the efforts I organize.  Those volunteers cannot be disregarded.  We need all the activists we can get.

On the lighter side of this discussion, here is the most convincing case I've found yet for NH, the state with the most Venture Capital investments and the most vibrant entrepreneurial business environment:

So far, the project has attracted mostly men in their 20s and 30s as well as some retirees and small business owners. Sorens estimated a 70/30 gender split. The movement is Internet based, and a disproportionate number of members are computer geeks and hi-tech workers, he said.

http://www.stateline.org/story.do?storyId=302832

I truly do not see how WY can compete with NH when a disproportionate portion of FSP members are high-tech workers.
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jgmaynard

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Re:New Hampshire vs. Wyoming – Self Defense Laws?
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2003, 10:47:17 am »

I have a friend who is a practicing defense attorney here in NH, so I asked him about self-defense laws...
He told me that if, in NH, someone breaks into your house, they are essentially dogmeat. He said he has NEVER heard of a person in NH being charged or tried for ANYTHING for defending their home.
But if you are outside your house, you are supposed to only respond with the same amount of force that you could expect to be attacked with; if an old lady is hitting you on the shin with her umbrella, you can't pull out an uzi and blow her away, and call it self-defense!  But if you are being attacked by a goon on the street, and you pull out a gun, and he charges out you anyway, then gee, he's probably hyped up on PCP, and you are in danger for your life... And so is he.... ;D  

JM
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Robert H.

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Re:New Hampshire vs. Wyoming – Self Defense Laws?
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2003, 09:09:28 pm »

Wyoming's attorney general was one of 18 attorneys general who signed a letter to US Attorney General John Ashcroft in support of Ashcroft's statements about the 2nd Amendment.  The letter starts as follows:

"We, the undersigned attorneys general of eighteen states, write
regarding your recently announced position that "the text and the
original intent of the Second Amendment clearly protect the right of individuals to keep and bear firearms." We agree that this is the proper reading of the Second Amendment, and that this policy best protects the fundamental interest of Americans in security and self-preservation. We have noted the criticism that has been leveled at you and the Department of Justice for taking this position, and wish to offer our wholehearted support for your efforts. . . ."

For full text of the letter, check out this link:

http://www.nraila.org/media/misc/pryorlet.pdf

This letter was sent on July 8, 2002, and carried the signature of Wyoming's attorney general along with the attorneys general of several other FSP candidate states:  Delaware, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota.

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Re:New Hampshire vs. Wyoming – Self Defense Laws?
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2003, 09:14:17 pm »

Also of interest in regard to Wyoming, here is a 15 question survey that was taken of Wyoming legislators in regard to their stance on gun rights.  The survey was conducted by Gun Owners of America, October 30, 2002:

http://www.gunowners.org/swy0202.htm

The majority of answers seem positive.

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Re:New Hampshire vs. Wyoming – Self Defense Laws?
« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2003, 03:10:52 am »

Probably, the two states are very similar in this respect. And whatever needs fixin' in either state (e.g., "Vermont carry") we will be able to do after we get there, probably without too much strain. So you're going to have to use other criteria to decide...
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LeRuineur6

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Re:New Hampshire vs. Wyoming – Self Defense Laws?
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2003, 10:51:37 am »

Quote
Also of interest in regard to Wyoming, here is a 15 question survey that was taken of Wyoming legislators in regard to their stance on gun rights.  The survey was conducted by Gun Owners of America, October 30, 2002:

Here is the same survey given in NH at the same date:

http://www.gunowners.org/snh0602.htm

The vast majority of answers are great as well.  And WOW, NH has a HUGE House and Senate!
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