Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: I think I like the FSP  (Read 9498 times)

rossby

  • Director of Development
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4801
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2009, 12:12:44 am »

The fact is, I've never encountered a board of directors, or a board of anything, board of education, board of regents, etc who were not idealogues.  They use lots of words, come up with catchphrases, but have no real connection to their relevant demographic.  They're usually even very very nice people, but seem to be out of touch.

An example-  the place where I use to work with kids made me go to this stupid weeklong conference, calling it professional development...

How is that you're not applying generalities and stereotypes?

As far as calling you out, I reitterate that I never said I had any negative feeling toward you or anyone else. 

I did not say anything about you expressing negative feelings. I asked if I'd upset you.

You said people on the board don't speak the same language as you, that "particulars tells [you] that they are all nouveau rich, bureaucratic, and have no grasp on what it is to make real sacrifice."

What are these particulars? I don't know what document you were reading (i.e. whether it's current). But as far as I know I'm the only lawyer on the board of directors. Another board member also already commented above. As did a former board member. We're real people. You said you'd observed real things that you concerned you about the board. What?
Logged

kyfornow

  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 222
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2009, 01:57:13 am »

I'll just leave it at this- I don't like not getting things done.  I don't like formalities, meetings, or not doing.  In fact, I'd prefer when I come to NH for 5 days for a "vacation", to help out with something in some way, while Ii'm there.  Obviously a guy can't do much while he's in town for that period of time and is spending much of it seeing certain towns and such, but even if I could engage in something for 5-6 hours of time I'd be satisfied.  Anything at all, no matter how simple.  It could be putting flyers on bulletin boards even.  Like I said I'll be coming in 12 days. 






Logged

Sovereign Curtis

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 485
  • I <3 PorcFest
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2009, 08:26:15 am »

I am not speaking in generalities, but in fact was referring to specific people or things I have observed.

You called me out in your list. What have you observed to believe I am "nouveau rich", bureaucratic, have no grasp of what it is to make real sacrifice, or don't speak the same language as you?

I'm merely trying to iron some things out for myself.  I'm making this trip 2 weeks from tomorrow, and I want to know exactly what to expect to find.

Cold weather--WEAR A HAT!

Beyond that, FSP-specific? Exactly? There's really no telling. Talk to as many porcs as you can.

Re: Kate's response. Had a thought. I've met a good number of porcs. Even when I disagree with them, I have a really hard time not getting along with most of them, generally speaking.

Re: Seth's response. His first statement about people looking for excuses rings pretty true. Some people do focus on reasons why they shouldn't be involved. That's sorta what your post sounded like because of the conjecture. That's probably where how he interpreted it and that's probably where he's coming from. (ahem. just a guess. don't let me put words in his mouth now...)

The fact is, I've never encountered a board of directors, or a board of anything, board of education, board of regents, etc who were not idealogues.

The fact is you havent met anyone on this board, so perhaps you should reserve judgment, eh?
Logged
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

PraeterIdiot

  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2009, 07:06:31 pm »


The fact is, I've never encountered a board of directors, or a board of anything, board of education, board of regents, etc who were not idealogues.

The fact is you havent met anyone on this board, so perhaps you should reserve judgment, eh?

don't be so bureaucratic Curtis, you ideological Richer!
Logged

kyfornow

  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 222
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2009, 08:05:40 pm »

I will say all of you have an amiable sense of humor!
Logged

cathleeninnh

  • FSP Treasurer
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 601
  • I'm a llama!
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2009, 10:08:51 am »

After posting on your threads and trying to offer some of my own experiences and thoughts, I kind of felt like you had met me, so I was a little taken aback when you said we (the board) weren't to your liking.

We are real people with real feelings. And I know the work and sacrifice it takes to move away from all my loved ones with no possessions or a job. I like the activism going on here and some of my own activism is helping others make the decision to move here. I do that by being on the board of the FSP. I haven't seen any of those ivory towers around any of us.

Cathleen
Logged

kyfornow

  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 222
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2009, 11:02:46 am »

Speaking to you, I am entirely and observably wrong. 

Most of what I was assessing was connected to people who's bios are listed in the organization section, but (and I didn't even realize you were the Cathleen on the board until you posted in this topic)

So ...

1) when I see the guy who created the concept of the FSP, he's a yale graduate, put that with the fact that he's teaching in NY, and he's not in NH.  If I were the guy who started something I'd be the first one to set foot in Nh and stay there.  Somebody commented that he was doing what he needed to do to take care of his family.  He could take care of his family in NH.  He might not make big bucks like he's going to get as a tenure track prof, but he'd make it.  Obviously others are making it.  It makes me think he's more concerned about his professional portfolio.

2) the current president- airline pilot, highly educated, excessive verbiage.  I just read his post looking for someone to shovel snow, and it read like a job description for a post-doctoral research associate in advanced political science.  I mean REALLY?  Now, it's his personal preference to ask for what he wants and how he wants it. That's what freedom is all about, but when I read his posts on here and then that one just took the cake, and theyre very sophisticated sounding.  But at least he's in NH


3) I've seen both of these two especially in youtube videos, interviews etc.  and they seem to carry themselves in an overly sophisticated way, and wearing suits and talking in a way that makes me want to locate the nearest redneck and listen to them speak, so I can balance out what I just heard.

4) The FSP website and all its stuff is copyrighted.  This to me is very bureaucratic and also seems to contradict the idea of a free state.  Something I had wanted to do, was going to do, and was pointing it out in the "Idea" post last night was, putting up flyers.  10,000 signers living all over the US and in a few other countries could add up to a lot of flyers in a lot of places.  But you know, I better read those disclaimers and prerequisites first. 
The fact is, I neither want nor need someone's permission or approval to do something, especially a non-profit organization that I neither work for or have any obligation to.
I would think the FSP would, like Freetalk live does, encourage everyone to post flyers everywhere.  But I better not, especially if I'm going to have the FSP logo on it.

5) You mentioned the phrase "Ivory tower"  which I have seen in posts here more than once.  I have read more than one post or observed more than one concern about these types of issues that I present, so I know I'm not the only one.  Now while I don't get the impression that any official FSP people believe they're superior to or better than anyone
I am observing all this separation, politico-speak, policies, formalities etc etc. 

I keep reittering that I'm not stating any of these people are bad people, or that the things connected to FSP are bad, just that they're bureaucractic and caught up in minutia and verbiage.  As I said, I don't like formalities, meetings bureacracy etc.  I prefer to do things.  I've even offered, for the 4 days I'm going to be in NH to help with anything I can while I'm checking out some towns and things I want to see.  Anybody that need help making signs, setting up for a gathering, anything I can help with I'll be glad to do it.  The nly vacation I've had in 10 years and it wouldn't bother me at all to spend it volunteering to assist other Porcs.
Logged

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5724
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2009, 12:01:07 pm »

1) when I see the guy who created the concept of the FSP, he's a yale graduate, put that with the fact that he's teaching in NY, and he's not in NH.  If I were the guy who started something I'd be the first one to set foot in Nh and stay there.  Somebody commented that he was doing what he needed to do to take care of his family.  He could take care of his family in NH.  He might not make big bucks like he's going to get as a tenure track prof, but he'd make it.  Obviously others are making it.  It makes me think he's more concerned about his professional portfolio.

 :D (Sorry, that bit made me chuckle.) My wife's a cancer survivor who can't work, so if I move to NH and become a janitor and lose my health insurance, that could be disastrous for us. Also, I can do more for liberty as a political scientist in NY than a janitor in NH. The goal, of course, is to be a political scientist in NH.
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

kyfornow

  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 222
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2009, 12:11:28 pm »

1) when I see the guy who created the concept of the FSP, he's a yale graduate, put that with the fact that he's teaching in NY, and he's not in NH.  If I were the guy who started something I'd be the first one to set foot in Nh and stay there.  Somebody commented that he was doing what he needed to do to take care of his family.  He could take care of his family in NH.  He might not make big bucks like he's going to get as a tenure track prof, but he'd make it.  Obviously others are making it.  It makes me think he's more concerned about his professional portfolio.

 :D (Sorry, that bit made me chuckle.) My wife's a cancer survivor who can't work, so if I move to NH and become a janitor and lose my health insurance, that could be disastrous for us. Also, I can do more for liberty as a political scientist in NY than a janitor in NH. The goal, of course, is to be a political scientist in NH.

Allright, well then, I stand inexplicably wrong in this case, and what's more I owe you a direct and straightforward apology for such.  That would be a case of assuming, and I was 100% wrong. 


Just maybe, all of the things I'm seeing and reading and hearing are all or mostly misleading and you're all a decent bunch, unlike 99% of the people I have ever worked for/with/around or volunteered for/with/around.

Logged

cathleeninnh

  • FSP Treasurer
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 601
  • I'm a llama!
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2009, 02:04:57 pm »

You are only wrong in that you lump the people in with organizational shortcomings. I don't like  a lot of things about organizations, but without some structure, there is no organization. We do what we can within the confines of that structure because gathering activists in NH is what is important. Getting here and living and working with so many lovers of liberty is awesome and overwhelming. I can't not help others get here, so I participate in some boring and nonfun (like my made up words?) activities like board meetings and endlessly verbose presidential e-mails (j/k Varrin, I love ya). I bite the bullet to get us closer and closer to that 20,000 number.


Cathleen
Logged

Dreepa

  • First 1000
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5124
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2009, 02:47:46 pm »


3) I've seen both of these two especially in youtube videos, interviews etc.  and they seem to carry themselves in an overly sophisticated way, and wearing suits and talking in a way that makes me want to locate the nearest redneck and listen to them speak, so I can balance out what I just heard.


Depending on what you saw it may have been at the FSP Liberty Forum (www.freestateproject.org/libertyforum) were many people 'dress up' as it is a convention...or maybe it was the interview with John Stossell?
Logged

rossby

  • Director of Development
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4801
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2009, 02:53:56 pm »

3) I've seen both of these two especially in youtube videos, interviews etc.  and they seem to carry themselves in an overly sophisticated way, and wearing suits and talking in a way that makes me want to locate the nearest redneck and listen to them speak, so I can balance out what I just heard.

A suit is just cloth. I frequently wear a suit. But I much prefer a pair of jeans. A suit is "professional" wear. Like it or not, most people do judge you on your appearance. If you do not know them, it's wise to look presentable. For example, if you're appearing on television. I recall Jason did an interview on Judge Napolitano's FreedomWatch earlier this year. He wore a brown suit--and people HERE were "gently criticizing" him of that. C'mon. It's just cloth...

And I grew up in the north, went to college, and read a great deal: you going to criticize me if I speak in some "overly sophisticated way"? C'mon. This is like "urbanites" calling rednecks stupid because of the way they speak. Ever notice the animosity flows both ways between groups? I highly encourage you not to support these artificial divisions among us. :)

4) The FSP website and all its stuff is copyrighted.

The post you just wrote is copyrighted by you!

The fact is, I neither want nor need someone's permission or approval to do something, especially a non-profit organization that I neither work for or have any obligation to.
I would think the FSP would, like Freetalk live does, encourage everyone to post flyers everywhere.  But I better not, especially if I'm going to have the FSP logo on it.

There was actually some recent chatter here about that. People can use the FSP logo, etc. without getting any permission. You'll find some old threads here of people asking how to get permission (seriously, have a look around). Like most things in the FSP, it's rather informal. There are general objections to people using the FSP logo in two scenarios: (1) advertising the FSP within New Hampshire, and (2) when used by or relating to racist groups. Personally, I think the first one is silly. And I wish the latter one weren't "necessary"--and I doubt whether it's effective anyway--but I understand the concerns there (for example, there was a recent CNN piece on "militia-groups"--which the FSP is NOT. However, if you go look for that series, you'll see the MSM enjoys painting such "non-mainstream" politics as necessarily incorporating some element of racism. Doesn't make sense, but that's what they do.)

I am observing all this separation, politico-speak, policies, formalities etc etc. 

Politico-speak? Not sure why what you mean there, but many aspects of the FSP necessasrily involve politics at least tangentially, so that's not too surprising.
Policies & formalities? Absolutely. There are policies. We do collect donations from thousands of people. Therefore, we absolutely MUST take measures to know that money is being spent wisely and not wasted. And the FSP does a very good job of that. That said, the FSP is probably THE loosest run organization I've ever seen. That's not necessarily a bad thing either. Given its nature, that's a good thing.

Anybody that need help making signs, setting up for a gathering, anything I can help with I'll be glad to do it.  The nly vacation I've had in 10 years and it wouldn't bother me at all to spend it volunteering to assist other Porcs.

If I recall, you're visiting right between Xmas and New Years. Seems like a "bad time" for doing any substantial activism activities. Have you checked out freekeene.com? You might be able to find something going on there. (I can't believe i just plugged that site...)
Logged

Sam A. Robrin

  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2009, 03:10:02 pm »

I like liberty activity, and I like what I see going on in NH, at least from what I see online.  But I don't think I like the FSP organization.

?  There's an organization . . . ?
Logged

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5724
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2009, 03:13:43 pm »

1) when I see the guy who created the concept of the FSP, he's a yale graduate, put that with the fact that he's teaching in NY, and he's not in NH.  If I were the guy who started something I'd be the first one to set foot in Nh and stay there.  Somebody commented that he was doing what he needed to do to take care of his family.  He could take care of his family in NH.  He might not make big bucks like he's going to get as a tenure track prof, but he'd make it.  Obviously others are making it.  It makes me think he's more concerned about his professional portfolio.

 :D (Sorry, that bit made me chuckle.) My wife's a cancer survivor who can't work, so if I move to NH and become a janitor and lose my health insurance, that could be disastrous for us. Also, I can do more for liberty as a political scientist in NY than a janitor in NH. The goal, of course, is to be a political scientist in NH.

Allright, well then, I stand inexplicably wrong in this case, and what's more I owe you a direct and straightforward apology for such.  That would be a case of assuming, and I was 100% wrong. 


Just maybe, all of the things I'm seeing and reading and hearing are all or mostly misleading and you're all a decent bunch, unlike 99% of the people I have ever worked for/with/around or volunteered for/with/around.

No worries! I think most of us are a decent bunch, just like most people. Hope to see you at Liberty Forum!
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

ny2nh

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 532
Re: I don't think I like the FSP
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2009, 08:56:39 pm »

I've seen both of these two especially in youtube videos, interviews etc.  and they seem to carry themselves in an overly sophisticated way, and wearing suits and talking in a way that makes me want to locate the nearest redneck and listen to them speak, so I can balance out what I just heard.

Heaven forbid.....well-spoken, good looking men in suits. :o

I'll make you a deal.....you can have your pick of the rednecks if I can have my pick of the well-spoken, good looking men in suits. ;)
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up