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[Keyser Soce]

I appreciate your point of view while disagreeing with it completely.

I guess that's what counts for deep, insightful political debate on the left.  I guess he felt too polite to call you a "moron" as seems to be the custom these days.

Oh well, hopefully you've planted a seed in his mind and we'll see him in New Hampshire some day.

I thought that the response was totally respectful...

It was a visceral response with no thought behind it. That's why it ended there with no explanation. Because he has none. If he was honest he's say "I'm afraid of guns and I have no idea why. Perhaps I should see a shrink." 

[WendellBerry]

I appreciate your point of view while disagreeing with it completely.

I guess that's what counts for deep, insightful political debate on the left.  I guess he felt too polite to call you a "moron" as seems to be the custom these days.

Oh well, hopefully you've planted a seed in his mind and we'll see him in New Hampshire some day.

I thought that the response was totally respectful...

It was a visceral response with no thought behind it. That's why it ended there with no explanation. Because he has none. If he was honest he's say "I'm afraid of guns and I have no idea why. Perhaps I should see a shrink." 

Sometimes based on the response someone gives it is just fruitless to engage in a dialogue because no one is going to change their mind.

It is totally appropriate and respectful to say "I guess we are just going to have respectfully agree to disagree"...

[rossby]

Perhaps an invitation to a range would be well received.

[MichaelWDean]

It was a visceral response with no thought behind it. ....

I agree. It reminds me of someone saying "thank you for your input" after getting (rightfully) chewed out in the workplace, when they really want to punch the person telling them how it is.

[MichaelWDean]

Perhaps an invitation to a range would be well received.

Waste of energy. Not true with some leftie/statist/gun-o-phobes, but I'm pretty good at telling which ones are worth the time.

MWD

[MichaelWDean]

....It was a visceral response with no thought behind it. That's why it ended there with no explanation. Because he has none. If he was honest he's say "I'm afraid of guns and I have no idea why. Perhaps I should see a shrink." 

I spent an hour crafting my response to him. And he spent 30 seconds brushing me off. Not that he owes me anything, but he's a cat who has sent me long questions in the past asking for free advice on filmmaking, and I answered him.

Also, he says "I wish I hadn't given you the thirty dollars for your book." (He didn't "give it to me", he bought the book at a Borders store. He told me.) He says it like he's worried he's funding al qaeda or some specious bullshit.

And I get a dollar, not 30 dollars, for each 30 dollar book people buy. 

My hourly consulting rate is 60 bucks an hour.  I've already given him a couple hours of my time, free, before this exchange. He got his one dollar's worth. PLUS the book, which he used as a blueprint to make his films!

These damn kids these days..... 

MWD

[scamper_22]

You can't argue with most liberals... especially using the arguments you most frequently see used by libertarians..

rights?  who cares... we need people to eat and have healthcare
efficiency?  who cares... at the cost of someone's livlihood...

There are some you will never be able to reach, but there are those who you can.  The easiest to convince, are actually some of the more genuine liberals and socialists.  Those who actually believe what they claim.

When you point out to a teacher that they get their money from property taxes that keep going up... and that is taken from poor people... they start to get a clue that when they get a pay raise, it hurts people.

When you mention that inflation erodes savings so a poor person cannot save... and is thus dependent on borrowing for everything... thus empowering huge financial firms above the poor person... they start getting a clue about printing money and debt.

When you mention to a labor supporter, that unions prevent poor people from getting access to jobs by making sure the one advantage they have (cost) cannot be used, and unions tend to run in the family, thus further excluding people... they start to get a clue.

i've found genuine socialists and liberals very easy to get onto the libertarian side.  No surprise, since many early leftists movement were anti-state... until they took over the state... 

[MichaelWDean]

You can't argue with most liberals... especially using the arguments you most frequently see used by libertarians..

....i've found genuine socialists and liberals very easy to get onto the libertarian side....

I've found punk rock "anarchist" angry young guys the easiest to "convert." At least some of 'em. Even if they vote Democrat right now. Ya start with "So, you seem to be a guy who sure likes being told what to do...." lol...

If they've got the right heart for it, I can "convert" them from government codependence addiction into budding genuine libertarians in a half-hour and a couple cups of coffee.

My years doing 12-step work in AA helped. Like helping drunks, it's not hard if you give the facts, and if the person has "hit bottom" already! And if you talk across the table with them rather than down at them, like so many people do with drunks and with liberals.

It also helps in both politics and AA if you used to be just like them, and I was. In both. (Some of you on here remember me asking "why shouldn't there be a war on drugs?" and stuff like that. And some of you gently and firmly and lovingly schooled me.)

MWD

[madness!]

I have given up on using statistics and anecdotes to argue with people. I just like to say some thing like "well, i dont think anyone has or can be given authority over anyone else." most everyone can agree on that, and I dont end up looking like an asshole. With any luck, it will eat at them and they may change over time.

when you throw facts and reason at them and 'beat' them in a debate. they are just going to hop on the internet and find a bunch of other facts to justify and harden their beliefs.

[kyfornow]

I have given up on using statistics and anecdotes to argue with people. I just like to say some thing like "well, i dont think anyone has or can be given authority over anyone else." most everyone can agree on that, and I dont end up looking like an asshole. With any luck, it will eat at them and they may change over time.

when you throw facts and reason at them and 'beat' them in a debate. they are just going to hop on the internet and find a bunch of other facts to justify and harden their beliefs.

I made that very point today, and how there are actually people who believe free market idealogy is morally wrong.  They see it as the opposite of what they believe and think that using force to impose a set of values on a collective society is morally right.  You will never ever convince those people regardless of statistics, because they have their statistics and their moral stance.

All you can really say is "Ok, you stay on your property and I'll stay on mine over here, because if you come over here trying to force me to be part of your collective culture we're gonna have a problem!"

[MichaelWDean]

Here's an even better one:


E-mail I just got from Jay Crawford, guitarist from my old band, Bomb. This guy was like a brother to me, we practically lived together, on the road, for years. We were on good terms last time we talked on the phone, about a year ago.

It's his response to looking at the website for my new CD ( http://www.LibertarianPunk.com ):

=====
Michael.....Once some one gets talked into these right wing ideas very rarely can they be talked back.....This new found cocky way of life  (in my opinion) is very wrong, very immoral and very dangerous. I'm older then you so consider my opinion if you still can...I doubt you will.
This makes me very sad.
.......Good luck, dumb f*ck.

[rossby]

Here's an even better one:


E-mail I just got from Jay Crawford, guitarist from my old band, Bomb. This guy was like a brother to me, we practically lived together, on the road, for years. We were on good terms last time we talked on the phone, about a year ago.

It's his response to looking at the website for my new CD ( http://www.LibertarianPunk.com ):

=====
Michael.....Once some one gets talked into these right wing ideas very rarely can they be talked back.....This new found cocky way of life  (in my opinion) is very wrong, very immoral and very dangerous. I'm older then you so consider my opinion if you still can...I doubt you will.
This makes me very sad.
.......Good luck, dumb f*ck.

You know... give your previous response in which you said you were NO wing... doesn't quite jive with the "Right Arm of Wyoming" thing. (Yeah, yeah, I know where it comes from. But c'mon, you're poking PR in the eye with a pointy stick )

[MichaelWDean]

I'm somewhere between far-far-right republitarian, and minarchist.

To most people in San Francisco (and many other places), that just means "right wing." Which is now a cuss word to a lot of folks.

I like the band name. It works for me.

MWD

p/s what's "PR"? I'm poking public relations with s stick? 

[MichaelWDean]

[WendellBerry]

there are actually people who believe free market idealogy is morally wrong.

Because you are talking about an ideal and they are referring to actually existing capitalism.