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Author Topic: Arguing with liberals  (Read 16163 times)

kyfornow

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2009, 01:25:26 pm »

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there are actually people who believe free market idealogy is morally wrong.

Because you are talking about an ideal and they are referring to actually existing capitalism.

No, the people I have argued with are not referring to the system as it is.  They were arguing their ideal against my ideal.  That's what makes it even more frightening.
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WendellBerry

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2009, 01:30:42 pm »

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there are actually people who believe free market idealogy is morally wrong.

Because you are talking about an ideal and they are referring to actually existing capitalism.

No, the people I have argued with are not referring to the system as it is.  They were arguing their ideal against my ideal.  That's what makes it even more frightening.

The reason they do is because it depends on a particular set of property relations as to whether or not they believe it is morally wrong (exploitative) or not.
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MichaelWDean

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2009, 02:56:15 pm »

Short e-mail I just got from a zine editor friend in England. He wanted to review my CD, but we got to chatting and he said:

"I presumed all the pro-gun shit was ironic."


===

My wife said, "Gack. Did you ask him if he's bought a blender so he can chew his steaks, or does the government sent someone over to do that for him?"

MWD
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rossby

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2009, 03:31:06 pm »

My wife said, "Gack. Did you ask him if he's bought a blender so he can chew his steaks, or does the government sent someone over to do that for him?"

I died, man. Really...
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MichaelWDean

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2009, 03:44:11 pm »

She's a pretty funny gal.

Today's our four-year anniversary! yay!

MWD
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MichaelWDean

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2009, 03:45:05 pm »

It's funny even without this, but you do know, right, that she was referencing England's ban on steak knives after stabbings went up when they banned guns.

MWD
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rossby

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2009, 04:22:19 pm »

It's funny even without this, but you do know, right, that she was referencing England's ban on steak knives after stabbings went up when they banned guns.

If that was @ me, I didn't catch the relevance of the blenders. But I do vaguelly recall hearing some years back about "steak knives"... eh. Steak knives? Crow bars? It's all the same.

(Actually, writing that, I realized I made a mistake. It wasn't a crow bar. It was a tire iron.)
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MichaelWDean

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2009, 04:28:35 pm »

It was @ anyone.

Not sure everyone knows England's recent nanny steak knife history.

MWD
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MTPorcupine3

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Re: Speaking of gun cartoons…
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2009, 04:51:49 pm »

Check this one out:

MTPorcupine3

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Re: Not funny, but poignant…
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2009, 04:52:50 pm »

Photo:

Brien

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2009, 11:07:44 am »

A friend of mine likes to use this argument.

If you feel so strongly about your stance, I suggest you put a gun-free zone sign on your front door. That way all your neighbors, the cops and the criminals will know where you stand and I'm sure they will all respect your position and not bring guns on to your property.

I also use a similar argument on those who are in favor of increasing Federal income and other forced taxes.  I simply suggest the next time they send in their tax returns, they just voluntarily increase the amount by whatever percentage they feel they want to raise on everyone else.   If they feel the gas tax isn't high enough, or any other tax, they can simply send a check to the Dept of Revenue Services for whatever increase they feel they should be paying for this tax but count me out!   >:(
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No country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law, and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more......M. T.

daveneu

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2010, 03:53:17 pm »

You know - I've been sitting here for the last 10 minutes coming up with all kinds of crazy schemes on how to talk to a Naz...uh...liberal. Some of my thoughts were scaring the bejeezus out of me. Not...pretty. I had one involving lighter fluid and a comb. I had to stop and calm down.

OK - I'm back. I think the best thing I can say is something my mommy taught me. Mommy always gave me lessons. O.K. - she always GIVED me lessons. One thing she always told me is never to pick on people less fortunate than me. It's just not nice. Remember - no matter how emotionally vacant or intellectually simple a person is, it's always good to look for the positive qualities in them. It's like...when you're driving down the road and you pass someone in one of those kiddie cars...a...uh...Prius? You just drive by (not difficult to do at all), hold down the snickering until they're out of sight and then have your laugh.

Again in a car - you driving along and ahead of you you spot a 1989 Honda (like the Atchoo or the Stikit) - I don't know - the one with the four wheels.          Let me finish - the one with the four wheels with rubber band tires and there's an "Obama" sticker on it. Whatever you do - don't honk your horn - the displaced air currents from the sound of your vehicle could cause glass breakage and shimmy (more the driver than the car).

Look, give the less fortunate the benefit of the doubt. Forget the fact that they may be dealing with an anneurism. It just might be that you're doing very well and now you need someone to bring you down to earth. Sure - a loved one could probably do the job BU....T - employing the services of a weak-minded, neurologically deficient Naz...uh...liberal might be able to take you someplace that all the others just couldn't...

And when they get you there, now break out the lighter fluid and comb.

Dave N.
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Dave N.
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WendellBerry

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2010, 04:01:04 pm »

Check out Thomas Sowell's book "A Conflict of Visions"

http://www.aei.org/article/23586

excerpt from Charles Murray's libertarian review:

One mark of a great book is a thesis so powerful that after a few years people take it for granted. Thomas Sowell's A Conflict of Visions (1987) is such a book. Its thesis: The policy arguments between liberals and conservatives, socialists and libertarians, do not arise just from differences in priorities regarding freedom, equality, and security. At root, they draw from different conceptions of the nature of man. The Left holds an unconstrained vision: Given the right political and economic arrangements, human beings can be improved, even perfected. Success is defined by what people have the potential of becoming, not by people as they are. The Right holds a constrained vision: People come to society with innate characteristics that cannot be reshaped and must instead be accommodated. Success in political and economic policy must be defined in light of those innate characteristics.

Once you have this framework in your head, the history of the great political debates of the 20th century coheres in a new way. The expansion of the welfare state, how to deal with crime, how to conduct the Cold War, the feminist revolution, colorblind policies versus affirmative action, who should control the schools--whatever the topic, the positions held by Left and Right make sense in terms of each side's underlying vision of the nature of man.
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daveneu

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2010, 04:33:05 pm »

The Left holds an unconstrained vision: Given the right political and economic arrangements, human beings can be improved, even perfected.

Yup - There's your Nazi Germany! The Aryan Race! Blond Hair / Blue Eyes! Let's all do the Adolph dance! Yup - Liberal Crackpots! Of course, who has any respect for those ignorant dolts?

The Right holds a constrained vision: People come to society with innate characteristics that cannot be reshaped and must instead be accommodated. Success in political and economic policy must be defined in light of those innate characteristics.

Yup - People are people. They have never changed. But given a balance of free will and a control mechanism where honesty is rewarded and larcenous behavior looked down upon, a civilization can thrive. A self-correcting free market system provides just that. That's the group that I'm a believer of. Proper balance yields spectacular results.

Dave N.
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Dave N.
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WendellBerry

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2010, 04:46:24 pm »

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who has any respect for those ignorant dolts

Well, they are saying the same thing about you...so much for dialogue.

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A self-correcting free market system provides just that

There has never been a "free market system"...only a more or less "freed" system.

Folks attracted to the FSP come from both the left (social) and right (economic) side.

The FSP won't ultimately be successful unless they find a way to engage the left.

Left-libertarians (of which I am one) believe that equality doesn't have to be traded off against freedom in the economic sphere...we are for EQUAL liberty.

We focus much more on distributive justice not so much on commutative justice.
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