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Author Topic: Arguing with liberals  (Read 16568 times)

MichaelWDean

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Arguing with liberals
« on: November 23, 2009, 06:01:40 pm »



I sent out a mass-mailing about my upcoming CD. I sent it to people who have written me fan letters of my previous work.

I got snippy anti-gun e-mails back from a few (I've gotten a lot of that lately.)

Some indie filmmaker said to me:

Everything about that CD and website is disconcerting and makes me regret giving you the $30 for your book...


====
I replied:
I'm having that effect on a lot of my former fans. lol....

If you want to elaborate and discuss, I'd be happy to hear it.
MWD
========
He was open to it, and said

I think that those of us of the more liberal persuasion are jarred by this sudden expression of an idealogy (sic) that we weren't aware of, and see you (sic) with an assault (sic) rifle makes it even more jarring. Given the craziness of the climate that we're living in, it doesn't surprise me that I'm not alone in having a visceral need to recoil.
====

I wrote him:

Eric,

I'll explain where I'm at (and how I got here). I don't expect to change your opinion, but I'm interested in your response.

I've always been a bit of an anarchist, a guy who didn't like following the rules. That's deeply obvious in my "$30 Film School" book, and all the other art that I've created, my whole life. I'm sure that attitude is part of why that book appealed to you. A lot of people like that book who would be bored by "Filmmaking for Dummies", which may contain similar information, but without the punk rock ethic.

Lately I've seen my country take a turn I don't like. I almost voted for Obama, but couldn't. I really wanted to vote for a younger, black guy, it seemed cool. And the stuffy old Republican running against him didn't seem like he was someone who "represented me." But right before the election, I did a lot of reading and soul searching, and ended up voting Libertarian.

I've become even much more libertarian since then. I've come to the irrefutable conclusion that it is absolutely immoral for the government to "do what's best for me", to over-tax people and force them into health care, or force them into anything.

I used to think that trying to get handouts from the government to make art was a good idea. (I even discussed that in "$30 Film School".)

I now think that's immoral. I wish I could take the book out of circulation because of that, or at least revise it, but I do not own the copyright.

I am not right-wing, I'm NO-wing. I lean more Republican these days, if I have to make a choice on that tired old left/right continuum, but really, I'm not on that chart. And Republicans tend to want to outlaw drugs, and I think all drugs should be legal, and I don't even do drugs. Also, Republicans tend to care a lot what people do in their bedrooms. I think gays should be able to marry, for instance.

It's hard for people living on the left/right continuum to wrap their head around the idea that government should be MINIMAL, that it should only protect our borders (with a strong DEFENSIVE, not offensive, military), protect our rights, and maybe take care of interstate highways. Maybe.

And that a non-regulated, entirely free market should take care of everything else. You all just don't "get it." You'll always say "BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! THERE OUTTA BE A LAW!"

Both Democrats and Republicans are identical in this sense.

I think that the only things that should be illegal are MURDER, RAPE, ASSAULT, THEFT, FRAUD AND TRESPASSING. Making laws against anything else is immoral.

Most of my life, I believed that Democracy was the perfect form of government. But lately, I've come to feel that Democracy is flawed. Because "51% can tyrannize 49%." That is, If 51% of the population decided that independent filmmaking should be a felony, how would you feel? Not that they would outlaw filmmaking, but I'm sure you can see the relevance in that example.

And if they did outlaw filmmaking, I'll bet you'd make films anyway, wouldn't you?

All laws (other than the "big six" I mention above), and all taxes, are enforced by violence, and are therefore immoral.

Here's what I mean by "enforced by violence": if you refuse to pay a tax or you disobey a law, police will come to your house to arrest you. If you refuse to come out, they will come in and put a gun to your head. If you resist, they will spray the walls with your brain.

This enforcement by violence is immoral when applied to anything but MURDER, RAPE, ASSAULT, THEFT, FRAUD AND TRESPASSING.

Which brings us to guns. You fear guns. But my guns are no threat to you, unless you try to harm me or my loved ones. And you wouldn't do that, so you are safe from my guns.

Just because some idiot uses a gun in an immoral way, it does not affect my guns. Take away his gun. Charge him for murder. Murder is illegal and should be. But don't mess with my gun. Doing so is immoral.

I'm a totally peace-lovin' guy, and ethical. I help old ladies across the street, help friends and strangers constantly, and I would not hurt a fly that didn't hurt me.

But I carry a gun with me at all times (which is legal in Wyoming, part of why I left California and moved here). I have guns in my home. Some are handguns that fit in my pocket. Some are rifles that could take out a Nazi at a half-mile.

I enjoy using guns. I enjoy the history, the mechanics, the science, and the skill challenge. I study guns like I used to study digital filmmaking.

I love to use guns for target shooting, and my wife and my friends and I do that often.

Taking a gun away from a peace-lovin' man, or voting in people who would do so, is immoral.

I used to trust the police to protect me, but by age 45, I've had to call 911 a few times. They took four minutes one time and 20 minutes another time. I got lucky, and the violent thug skulked away.

But if he hadn't, either time, all the police could have done was take photos of my corpse.

A gun makes a little old lady equal in strength, and more, to a violent street thug. And me with a gun means you (or anyone else) can't force me to do anything. You have to treat me ethically. You are ethical, but not everyone is. A gun makes me a free man, because it prevents anyone from forcing me to do anything. And that is totally in keeping with my punk rock anarchist ethic in my book that you loved. Doing your own thing, and not being forced to do things you don't like.

Like I say in my song, "My Gun Keeps You Honest." I don't have to use it to keep you ("you" meaning "the world") honest, I merely have to have it, be skilled at using it, and be willing to use it. Without fail.


Respectfully,
Michael W. Dean

--
He replied:
I appreciate your point of view while disagreeing with it completely.

====-
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Bazil

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 02:06:33 am »

"When seconds count the police are only 5 minutes away!"

From what I can see you said everything right that you could.  One thing to mention is that guns being illegal won't stop someone who wants to kill you from using one on you since obviously breaking the law doesn't bother him.  Also if he thinks that prohibiting buying and selling guns is going to make it harder to get one you can use this example:  When one of my brothers was 9 years old he couldn't get a gun.  So he made a .22 caliber handgun himself out of some parts he had laying around. It worked quite well, he could muzzle load it or use normal .22 bullets.
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MichaelWDean

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 02:24:29 am »

True stuff.

Thanks!

MWD
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rossby

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 02:29:21 am »

One thing to mention is that guns being illegal won't stop someone who wants to kill you from using one on you since obviously breaking the law doesn't bother him.

The very first "live" criminal case I ever worked involved the armed robbery of a gas station convenience store and the murder of its poor clerk.

Both felons went into the gas station with loaded handguns. They demanded all the money in the register, something like $40. They tied the clerk up with rope so he couldn't call the cops. After they left the store and got in the get-away car, the clerk tried to get free. But the felons saw the clerk trying to free himself. Even though they had handguns, one of the felons got out of the car, opened the trunk, removed a crowbar, walked back into the store, and bludgeoned the clerk until his skull was shattered and bloody. The murderer had his handgun tucked in the belt of his sweatpants at the time. Why? The felon thought (incorrectly, to his misfortune) that, if he was arrested, charged, and convicted of murder, that he would be sentenced to less time in prison for not using a handgun.

I assure you, crowbars don't kill people. People kill people.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 11:31:18 pm by B.D. Ross »
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MichaelWDean

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 02:43:05 am »

Yikes!

MWD
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mvpel

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 04:24:01 am »

Quote
I appreciate your point of view while disagreeing with it completely.

I guess that's what counts for deep, insightful political debate on the left.  I guess he felt too polite to call you a "moron" as seems to be the custom these days.

Oh well, hopefully you've planted a seed in his mind and we'll see him in New Hampshire some day.
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WendellBerry

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2009, 07:09:05 am »

Quote
I appreciate your point of view while disagreeing with it completely.

I guess that's what counts for deep, insightful political debate on the left.  I guess he felt too polite to call you a "moron" as seems to be the custom these days.

Oh well, hopefully you've planted a seed in his mind and we'll see him in New Hampshire some day.

I thought that the response was totally respectful...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 09:22:35 am by WendellBerry »
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Dreepa

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2009, 09:03:50 am »

But Michael they are guns!!!-- nice reply.

(I have a friend staying over and she noticed my gun safe and asked if it were ok.  I said yes  the guns don't unlock the safe, load themselves and then fire when she was sleeping.  at least my guns haven't yet.. .there is always the chance I guess.  I have seen Fantasia)

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kyfornow

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2009, 09:30:55 am »

But Michael they are guns!!!-- nice reply.

(I have a friend staying over and she noticed my gun safe and asked if it were ok.  I said yes  the guns don't unlock the safe, load themselves and then fire when she was sleeping.  at least my guns haven't yet.. .there is always the chance I guess.  I have seen Fantasia)



Those would be awfully expensive guns.


The thing is, people can't see passed the beginning of a law or of govermnet.  That is what I was implying with the "Gateway laws" essay I wrote is that even when things start out with good intention, they end up having bad results. 
Using force never has good results of any kind. 
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Delphina

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2009, 10:16:46 am »

A friend of mine likes to use this argument.

If you feel so strongly about your stance, I suggest you put a gun-free zone sign on your front door. That way all your neighbors, the cops and the criminals will know where you stand and I'm sure they will all respect your position and not bring guns on to your property.
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MichaelWDean

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2009, 11:40:27 am »

A friend of mine likes to use this argument.

If you feel so strongly about your stance, I suggest you put a gun-free zone sign on your front door. That way all your neighbors, the cops and the criminals will know where you stand and I'm sure they will all respect your position and not bring guns on to your property.

I'm always a fan of that idea.

MWD
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Dreepa

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2009, 01:59:48 pm »

like this?
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Dreepa

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2009, 02:03:32 pm »

or this one.
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rossby

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2009, 02:19:31 pm »

Yikes!

MWD

It often has that mouth-shutting effect.
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Delphina

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Re: Arguing with liberals
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2009, 03:09:37 pm »

or this one.

haha! Yeah, that's one I've seen him use. Love it.
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