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Author Topic: Suggestions for Improvement  (Read 18023 times)

rossby

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2009, 05:43:09 pm »

that's what I have for now.  It's all the same stuff everyone says so it shouldn't be very surprising.  My apologies if the FSP board question was answered with incorrect information.  I don't have much information about the board at all, or how it works.  Please keep that in mind before you tear me apart.

I have no desire to "tear anyone apart". My responses are open to anyone, and I appreciate all responses.

1)  have movers elect new board members.  Possibly at a conference like Porcfest or Liberty Forum.  This should be open to movers and would show prospective movers attending that once they settle, they too can decide which liberty lovers they want to steer the direction of the FSP.  (Since the direction should mostly be the same goal of the organization, this shouldn't be too difficult. .. the organization is about moving people to NH.  If there are other suggestions for other states and etc. . . those should be reserved for a new organization NOT the FSP)

...

2)  Let movers decide on how they would like the money spent.  Some movers might feel that they're no longer important to the movement since they arrived.  Some might be frustrated with how the money is spent.  I really don't know how it gets decided.  The board should be the ones to put up the best ideas and the members should be the ones deciding where it goes

The money is raised and effort done by movers, non-movers, and friends alike. Why should the movers have sole control of it?

Also, the board minutes are posted online at freestateproject.org. One can log in and look through the Site Index. I don't think those from the last two meetings are up yet though.

What if the board sent a message on a periodic basis and attempted to keep people more informed about what was going on?

3)  Allow all movers/members to advertise the FSP as they see fit.  Some people might not agree with the types of ads or the places the ads are put.  The logo of the organization, the name, initials, mission statements, etc should be free to use for all members for whatever media they choose to create with it.  Hearing from anyone that the images are copyrighted and that you'd have to ask permission seems counter productive.   The board doesn't need to be a part of it I don't think. Copyright issues should not be discussed in a manner to threaten others not to use the logo and name.  We're supposed to be libertarian.

I don't think it's the content or method that bothers anyone. Or at least not a significat number of people. I think it's the specific people who are advertising. For example, if Stormfront started advertising, that's something that the board would probably be opposed to, because there's a strong desire not to be associated with racial agitators.

I guess I haven't done quite enough homework here. I don't know of enough "no, don't use the logo" issues.

Quote
-moving back out.  Many porcs have moved here only to leave.  Some leave for just a few months, while others intend to leave for good.  Some have become disgruntled about the movement, while others just lose interest.

1)  There's a reason they're leaving.  Find out what it is.  Ask what you can do to help them out with their issues.  

Does anyone know of any reasons off hand?

2)  Some leave because there's lack of work.  Find out their trade and help them look for jobs.  For those uninterested, find out what interested them in the first place.  Initiate a call to find out who else is interested in the same things.  Not just liberty issues, find out who likes to go fishing and post something asking if people want to go on a porcupine fishing trip!  At the same time, you can find out laws that are unfairly anti-fishing and bring them up during the trip, it might just get their juices flowing again.

Do you think this problem would be solved if more people were "plugged in" to the Free State Project community?

3)  Find out what about the movement is bad to them.  I've often felt that this movement wasn't actually for me, it was for other types of libertarians.  Find out where these people lie in their thoughts and connect them to others that are looking to be active on the same issues.  

This is to you, FreeStyle: What type of libertarian are you? Why do you feel that it's not for you? What would change it?
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rossby

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2009, 05:56:52 pm »

Quote
I mentioned the Sponsor a Highway project on Route 286, which thousands of out of state beach goers use every month to come to Hampton and Seabrook Beaches.  Instead of disallowing the use of the Free State Project name on that sign, the Board should allow it.  So, my advice/suggestion is to allow it, rather than forbid or discourage in state advertising.

I agree with this statement.

Does anyone know what happened there more specifically? I don't see why someone said don't do it...
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RichW

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2009, 06:03:12 pm »

1)  have movers elect new board members.  Possibly at a conference like Porcfest or Liberty Forum.  This should be open to movers and would show prospective movers attending that once they settle, they too can decide which liberty lovers they want to steer the direction of the FSP.  (Since the direction should mostly be the same goal of the organization, this shouldn't be too difficult. .. the organization is about moving people to NH.  If there are other suggestions for other states and etc. . . those should be reserved for a new organization NOT the FSP)

...

2)  Let movers decide on how they would like the money spent.  Some movers might feel that they're no longer important to the movement since they arrived.  Some might be frustrated with how the money is spent.  I really don't know how it gets decided.  The board should be the ones to put up the best ideas and the members should be the ones deciding where it goes

The money is raised and effort done by movers, non-movers, and friends alike. Why should the movers have sole control of it?

I concur.  No one is required to move until 20,000 have signed up.  Older members, such as myself, often need substantially more time to rearrange their affairs in order to move.  If I were 20 years old, with nothing but a few possessions, no complicated business and real estate holdings, no kids, no aging parents in need of care and other circumstances, I'd have been there 3 years ago.

I'm all for making decision making more democratic.  But, that means including ALL members.  Friends?  Hmmm, that is a tougher one.  I suppose they should be included if they contribute money.  In fact, that may be a way to garner more contributions..."if you contribute at least $X per year to the FSP, you will have a vote in how the budget is spent."
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"... it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds...."  ~  Samuel Adams

FreeStyle

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2009, 07:27:47 pm »

I'm not going to re-quote everything lol:

BD+Rich:  You make good points on who gets control, I guess it shouldn't just be movers.  I think, as an outsider for now, that someone might be more inclined to move faster if they had a chance to vote on things once they did so.  I suppose it's not about moving fastest, it's about moving once 20k people sign up.  That's just something I keep forgetting.

I've seen only one discussion on the copyright of the porcupine logo.  I would agree with you about advertising on places like Stormfront and how that might not be what the board wants.  I would like to suggest, however, that many of us held very disgusting and vile ideas on race, sexual orientation, religion, etc on some occasions in our lives.  At the same time very loose principles of liberty still shine through, and it took moving towards liberty to break me of those disgusting chains that bound me to worrying about stupid differences in humans.

as for the question to me, I am a voluntaryist.  At certain times I felt the movement was too libertarian for me and that there weren't others that still wanted some forms of big government.  Like anyone I've had my "pets" that only the government could do.  More recently, I've felt that many in the movement were being blatantly un-principled in manners, to the point where I could no longer even read some of the comments.   I've since realized that I'm not really going to let it bother me and thus, I'm here.

as for the Route 286 sign. . . I was to understand there is a FSP sign in Peterborough already.  The information I have is the little provided by Max earlier in this thread, take that as you will.

I do think more problems would be solved with more communication, either by email, facebook, or snail mail.  I like facebook updates on big information.  Just my two cents.
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rossby

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2009, 07:43:28 pm »

BD+Rich:  You make good points on who gets control, I guess it shouldn't just be movers.  I think, as an outsider for now, that someone might be more inclined to move faster if they had a chance to vote on things once they did so.  I suppose it's not about moving fastest, it's about moving once 20k people sign up.  That's just something I keep forgetting.

What do you think if there were another organization, separate from the FSP, that was focused on providing "services" to people who had already made the move?

I've seen only one discussion on the copyright of the porcupine logo.  I would agree with you about advertising on places like Stormfront and how that might not be what the board wants.  I would like to suggest, however, that many of us held very disgusting and vile ideas on race, sexual orientation, religion, etc on some occasions in our lives.  At the same time very loose principles of liberty still shine through, and it took moving towards liberty to break me of those disgusting chains that bound me to worrying about stupid differences in humans.

Certainly. And there are people there who will, someday, see the light.

But I think it's the guilt by association that "we" are more worried about. For example, right now CNN is running a 3-part series on militia movements in America (which the FSP is NOT). But if you look at the general public's responses to those articles, many seem to be assuming (without any particular reason) that a great deal of those militia-types are overt racists and there motivation is racial. Which is ridiculous.

You can't stop the public from being wrong factually, but you can avoid associating with people who will give others the wrong idea. It's not a strictly yes-no question I don't think, and that's where all the participants' opinions come in handy.

as for the question to me, I am a voluntaryist.  At certain times I felt the movement was too libertarian for me and that there weren't others that still wanted some forms of big government.  Like anyone I've had my "pets" that only the government could do.  More recently, I've felt that many in the movement were being blatantly un-principled in manners, to the point where I could no longer even read some of the comments.   I've since realized that I'm not really going to let it bother me and thus, I'm here.

I don't like nit-picking over the terms too much. Voluntaryists and Libertarians are both libertarian so far as I care: they are both more concerned with liberty than the status quo.

I do think more problems would be solved with more communication, either by email, facebook, or snail mail.  I like facebook updates on big information.  Just my two cents.

If there were a print publication that included a bunch of different things: updates, articles, directories, calendars, etc. would you pay a small fee for that? Like $16 a year?
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anon37268573

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2009, 10:08:07 pm »

BD+Rich:  You make good points on who gets control, I guess it shouldn't just be movers.  I think, as an outsider for now, that someone might be more inclined to move faster if they had a chance to vote on things once they did so.  I suppose it's not about moving fastest, it's about moving once 20k people sign up.  That's just something I keep forgetting.

What do you think if there were another organization, separate from the FSP, that was focused on providing "services" to people who had already made the move?

I really like this idea.  Perhaps, just call it the "Freestaters".  I would suggest keeping "Free State" in the name so that publicity for either organizations can benefit both.  Many people in New Hampshire are familiar with the "Free State Project".  But, "porc" doesn't generate the association for them.

Most of the press in the NH papers tends to be about things like the hats in the court rooms, the couch, drug activity, and various weapons related incidents that sound frightening and unsettling.  A "Freestater" organization could issue press releases about porcs doing really good things that benefit everyone like running for office to reduce taxes or starting businesses that employ local people.  I'd say a majority of people in NH know about porc involvement in that dentist's armed tax stand-off with her schizophrenic husband.  But, how many regular people know about the jobs that Murphy's Taproom created or that its founder was one of the 40 under 40 top business people in Manchester a few years ago?

It would really help us to build a brand around benefiting the locals that people could be proud to be involved in.  One of the reasons that I use "anon" on these forms is because I don't want to be associated with the Marijuana/drug activity and positions of many porcs, the antagonizing of police officers, or the weapons issues that keep cropping up (like people getting pulled over wearing a bullet proof vest and having guns loaded with hollow point bullets).  Both of my parents were cops - I really feel for those guys on some of the stuff that porcs have been putting them through.

         - anon
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2009, 11:39:26 pm »

Everyone just move
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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2009, 12:17:49 am »

not that easy for everyone... NH school would be about 5 times as much as it is for me now.
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yeah, an actual signature. does that blow your mind?!

rossby

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2009, 12:33:17 am »

Constructive comments, please.

Mad, why's it 5x as much?
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Dreepa

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2009, 12:40:46 am »

Quote
I mentioned the Sponsor a Highway project on Route 286, which thousands of out of state beach goers use every month to come to Hampton and Seabrook Beaches.  Instead of disallowing the use of the Free State Project name on that sign, the Board should allow it.  So, my advice/suggestion is to allow it, rather than forbid or discourage in state advertising.

I agree with this statement.

Does anyone know what happened there more specifically? I don't see why someone said don't do it...

I said don't do it.

The FSP doesn't advertise in NH.
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Dreepa

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2009, 12:41:51 am »

Constructive comments, please.

Mad, why's it 5x as much?

My guess is that where he lives (FLA I think)... it is subsidized by the state much more so then UNH is subsidized by state of NH.
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FreeStyle

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2009, 06:41:07 am »

would the FSP sue someone over putting up an adopt a highway sign?
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"Hagrid"

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2009, 10:46:10 am »

The FSP is a DOocracy: those who do have control.  If you want to get involved, get involved by doing things that folks want to see done (NOT your ideas, assist someone with help on something they want done).  Once you show you can be counted on, you gain more respect and more responsiblity.  You also learn the behind the scenes info about how the org runs, etc.

We have lots of 'chiefs' and few 'indians', and sadly, too many want to be 'chiefs'.
(Politically incorrect reference, but quite true)

rossby

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2009, 12:14:58 pm »

The FSP doesn't advertise in NH.

But the FSP itself wasn't advertising and didn't direct it. Its hands are clean.

If someone wants to be gung-ho about the FSP in a peaceful manner, I have no desire to stop them.
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2009, 02:29:27 pm »

would the FSP sue someone over putting up an adopt a highway sign?

Perhaps not, but the Kieth and Stuff (global mod) insisted that the Board would not (and has not) grant permission for in state advertising or use of its name.  I respect their decision, though I don't agree with it.  When advertisers were called for, I offered to buy and ad in the FSP Newsletter for the Next 1,000 campaign.  Not only did the Board refuse, but Board members have gone on record stating emphatically that the Next 1,000 is not endorsed by the Board (the First 1,000 was).  I've even been told (through the rumor mill--not great with details) that the Board is telling people that the Next 1,000 is my project alone, which is certainly not true.  Ian Bernard also repeated this misstatement on air on FTL, and I have never heard any effort to correct this.  As a correction, dozens of people were involved in the creation/discussion of N1K, and over a dozen liberty activists have done work on it.

"DoOcracy" is right, but when people make misstatements about these things--then refuse to retract those statements when they are corrected (or refuse to listen to the correction), then there's bound to be a loss in credibility.  One of the people mentioned in this post (I won't name names) has also repeated the "liar" accusation so many times that people in his neck of the woods believe and repeat it--not having an actual lie to refer to... though that's for another thread (which was rightfully locked).  Consequently, the debate over how many businesses closed at what time was never resolved, and may never be reopened...  (though the fact that so many stores are open late is one of the reasons that the seacoast has such a decent job market--especially in summer.)

My point is that there was no effort by the accusers to correct their accusations.  The irony that those who were making accusations of inaccuracy and deceit were themselves not being accurate or careful with their own remarks.  Those careless with such important issues should exercise more discretion in their remarks about others.

That concludes my exposition on the deleterious effects of flame wars and personal attacks, which should never be allowed to run loose on a forum like this.
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