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Author Topic: Suggestions for Improvement  (Read 18043 times)

rossby

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Suggestions for Improvement
« on: November 15, 2009, 09:25:08 pm »

Just read the posts.

The answers are in there.

I mean this respectfully, but you appear to be engaging in the very dismissiveness you're complaining about.

Quote
"Just don't tell people to take their idea and get lost. Option? Offer help, info, ideas, contacts, etc."

Please, have at it. I'll even split the thread.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 04:19:07 pm by B.D. Ross »
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: Maxxoccupancy's Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2009, 09:27:44 pm »

Just go back and read the thread.  You shouldn't ask people to repost from the same thread or quote themselves.  If you don't understand, then you don't understand.  If you're trying not to understand, that's a different issue.
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rossby

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Re: Maxxoccupancy's Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2009, 10:14:33 pm »

Just go back and read the thread.  You shouldn't ask people to repost from the same thread or quote themselves.  If you don't understand, then you don't understand.  If you're trying not to understand, that's a different issue.

My goodness, such hostility. I haven't asked you to do those things. You simply haven't addressed the things I'd asked for. Not substantially. Not so far as I can tell. Let it never be said that I didn't earnestly listen to your complaints and directly solicit your suggestions.
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FreeStyle

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Re: Maxxoccupancy's Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2009, 05:21:30 am »

I'm interested too.  In fact we should keep all of the suggestions in this thread.
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rossby

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2009, 04:19:25 pm »

I'm interested too.  In fact we should keep all of the suggestions in this thread.

Whatcha got for us? :)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 04:36:06 pm by B.D. Ross »
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madness!

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2009, 04:39:09 pm »

i think i am going to try and be less confrontational...

maybe have an "opinions" subforum.  That way, people can still argue, but all the debates will be in a single spot. particularly the more... vicious debates. hot button issues like abortion, gay marriage, role of government, secession, etc, could have there own sticky (or maybe there own child forum) so people could post there opinions and ideas in there. plus, if some one came around pursuing the forums about the FSP, they could check the "opinions" section and see the diverse set of opinions that people have. also, topics that go off on a tangent with a lengthy argument between several people can be moved there. i think it would make the rest of the forum more friendly without having to have "police" moderators.
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yeah, an actual signature. does that blow your mind?!

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2009, 04:41:32 pm »

sweet idea. 
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rossby

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2009, 04:47:37 pm »

i think i am going to try and be less confrontational...

maybe have an "opinions" subforum.  That way, people can still argue, but all the debates will be in a single spot. particularly the more... vicious debates. hot button issues like abortion, gay marriage, role of government, secession, etc, could have there own sticky (or maybe there own child forum) so people could post there opinions and ideas in there. plus, if some one came around pursuing the forums about the FSP, they could check the "opinions" section and see the diverse set of opinions that people have. also, topics that go off on a tangent with a lengthy argument between several people can be moved there. i think it would make the rest of the forum more friendly without having to have "police" moderators.

Forums for a group with a specific cause, more often than not, tend to be divisive.

What do you think about having "light discussion" on all those opinion-topics, but also actively referring people to the many other internet forums run by FSP of FSP-friendly folks?
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madness!

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2009, 05:00:40 pm »

thats probably a better idea, keep it nice and light. after all, unlike say, a liberation discussion board, we are all going to be working together on a face to face basis once we get to NH.
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yeah, an actual signature. does that blow your mind?!

maxxoccupancy

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Re: Maxxoccupancy's Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2009, 07:46:21 pm »

Just go back and read the thread.  You shouldn't ask people to repost from the same thread or quote themselves.  If you don't understand, then you don't understand.  If you're trying not to understand, that's a different issue.

My goodness, such hostility. I haven't asked you to do those things. You simply haven't addressed the things I'd asked for. Not substantially. Not so far as I can tell. Let it never be said that I didn't earnestly listen to your complaints and directly solicit your suggestions.

Hostility?  That's the problem with fora (and email, chat, etc).  I'm just saying that if you go back and read the whole thread, you'll see people's suggestions for what to do or not do.  Splitting a thread called "Why only 776?" because I'm answering the OP's question--and insisting that someone basically change topics--makes no sense to me.

To be sure, I'm not intending any hostility.  I'm just asking you to go back and reread the thread.  I was just answering the OP's question.
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rossby

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2009, 03:29:40 pm »

Just go back and read the thread.  You shouldn't ask people to repost from the same thread or quote themselves.  If you don't understand, then you don't understand.  If you're trying not to understand, that's a different issue.

My goodness, such hostility. I haven't asked you to do those things. You simply haven't addressed the things I'd asked for. Not substantially. Not so far as I can tell. Let it never be said that I didn't earnestly listen to your complaints and directly solicit your suggestions.

Hostility?  That's the problem with fora (and email, chat, etc).  I'm just saying that if you go back and read the whole thread, you'll see people's suggestions for what to do or not do.  Splitting a thread called "Why only 776?" because I'm answering the OP's question--and insisting that someone basically change topics--makes no sense to me.

To be sure, I'm not intending any hostility.  I'm just asking you to go back and reread the thread.  I was just answering the OP's question.

I did read the thread.

Then I asked, not what is wrong, but what could be done to fix those things you identified.

There have been no real responses about "fixes" in that thread. And you've further complained that about negativity and that people shouldn't tell others to "Go do it yourself."

But I feel like that's what you're doing now. This is an opportunity to fix those problems: do you really want to?

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=19436.msg231475#msg231475

C'mon. For each item in there, think of 2-3 suggestions. That's open to everyone.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 03:32:02 pm by B.D. Ross »
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 05:20:03 pm »

That thread was "Why only 776," and my intent was to give a number of reasons--as a long time recruiter--why so many folks aren't moving or haven't even signed up to move.

I feel pretty confident that I had explained the solutions, where solutions were available--but in most cases (family, medical, split custody, etc), no solution is available.  Obviously, folks could be less negative/personal

Flame wars and personal attacks have disenchanted a lot of folks, and we've all seen the counter come to a dead stop when those flame wars have dragged on.  When one identifies negative posting as a major problem, then suggests that trolls be booted off of this forum (in order to solve that problem), it's not okay (IMO) to then insist that a poster propose a solution.  The reason is that I have already posted the solution on that one: boot the regular personal attackers off of this forum.

That, IMO, is the solution.

Boot the trolls off the forum--or at least, stop making them moderators.

The FSP Board has stated that they do not advertise in state.  The Board has asked members not to advertise in state. That, IMO, is a mistake.  As an example, I mentioned the Sponsor a Highway project on Route 286, which thousands of out of state beach goers use every month to come to Hampton and Seabrook Beaches.  Instead of disallowing the use of the Free State Project name on that sign, the Board should allow it.  So, my advice/suggestion is to allow it, rather than forbid or discourage in state advertising.

Another example I gave was the FSP Board's refusal to endorse or accept ads for the Next 1,000.  Since the Next 1,000 was discussed and brought about from the grass roots level (mover-activists themselves), I felt that the Board should both endorse the effort and allow Next 1,000 ads in the FSP Newsletter, which reaches about 12,000 people.

My suggestion, if you will, is to allow the Next 1,000--a grassroots project--to be advertised in the FSP Newsletter.  My other suggestion was for the FSP Board to endorse various grass roots organized projects--like the Next 1,000.

I really did feel that the solutions to these problems were pretty well understood, and I don't see a reason to explain in graphic, explicit detail that we (or the Board) should do things that are good, and that we (or the Board) should stop doing things that are bad.
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2009, 05:22:34 pm »

Or, for further clarification:

1. If something is bad, and leads to bad things, we (myself and other people) should not do it (or stop doing it if myself and/or other people are doing it).

2. If something is good, and leads to good things, we (myself and other people) should start/continue doing it for as long as it appears to lead to good results.
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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2009, 05:24:39 pm »

Quote
-members are not members.  Only the FSP Board has any say in the organization.  Movers are not considered "members," and have no vote or say in anything that FSP Corp. does.  This is not a member owned organization.

Suggestions(?):  

1)  have movers elect new board members.  Possibly at a conference like Porcfest or Liberty Forum.  This should be open to movers and would show prospective movers attending that once they settle, they too can decide which liberty lovers they want to steer the direction of the FSP.  (Since the direction should mostly be the same goal of the organization, this shouldn't be too difficult. .. the organization is about moving people to NH.  If there are other suggestions for other states and etc. . . those should be reserved for a new organization NOT the FSP)

2)  Let movers decide on how they would like the money spent.  Some movers might feel that they're no longer important to the movement since they arrived.  Some might be frustrated with how the money is spent.  I really don't know how it gets decided.  The board should be the ones to put up the best ideas and the members should be the ones deciding where it goes

3)  Allow all movers/members to advertise the FSP as they see fit.  Some people might not agree with the types of ads or the places the ads are put.  The logo of the organization, the name, initials, mission statements, etc should be free to use for all members for whatever media they choose to create with it.  Hearing from anyone that the images are copyrighted and that you'd have to ask permission seems counter productive.   The board doesn't need to be a part of it I don't think.  Copyright issues should not be discussed in a manner to threaten others not to use the logo and name.  We're supposed to be libertarian.

Quote
-substance abuse.  Drinking (and other drugs) have been a major issue, in my opinion.  Some folks have taken this to excess, and it inhibits their drive to do anything but hold the occasional sign or attend the occasional event.  I am drinking a Blue Moon while writing this, so whatever, eh.

1)  Encourage these drunks to join support groups.  Believe it or not, some people might not know that you think they have a problem at all.

2)  Create your own support group, or tailor one that you've seen/used to fit the ideals of a libertarian/anarchist/atheist/polytheist/etc.  Just pointing at someone and saying they're abusing drugs or alcohol doesn't do much to help them.

3)  Offer a service to provide rides for porcs you feel might be driving under the influence.  Offer rides to the polls to hold signs or to a 420 rally for those that are too inebriated to drive.

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-moving back out.  Many porcs have moved here only to leave.  Some leave for just a few months, while others intend to leave for good.  Some have become disgruntled about the movement, while others just lose interest.

1)  There's a reason they're leaving.  Find out what it is.  Ask what you can do to help them out with their issues.  

2)  Some leave because there's lack of work.  Find out their trade and help them look for jobs.  For those uninterested, find out what interested them in the first place.  Initiate a call to find out who else is interested in the same things.  Not just liberty issues, find out who likes to go fishing and post something asking if people want to go on a porcupine fishing trip!  At the same time, you can find out laws that are unfairly anti-fishing and bring them up during the trip, it might just get their juices flowing again.

3)  Find out what about the movement is bad to them.  I've often felt that this movement wasn't actually for me, it was for other types of libertarians.  Find out where these people lie in their thoughts and connect them to others that are looking to be active on the same issues.  

4)  Don't play up the state or the area of the state with untrue "facts".  Let's not pretend that any place in this state is some liberty haven just waiting for people to move there and "take over". . . . let's also not pretend that there's any part of the state that has "good" cops, "good" bureaucrats, "good" politicians, "good" citizens.  I've not been to a town yet that was devoid of statist thinking and acting goons.  BE HONEST.  can I say that again. . . > HONEST.  Your opinion is great and everything but when you start blatantly lying about why your area is better than the others by dropping factoids that simply can't be corroborated by ANYONE. . . it might just turn people off to you, your area, NH, FSP, and the liberty movement as a whole.  Post honest facts that you can back up with absolute proof.  No one wants to move to an area to find out that what they were told about it is not true.  Don't attack those who are calling you out on your opinions that you are posting as fact.

that's what I have for now.  It's all the same stuff everyone says so it shouldn't be very surprising.  My apologies if the FSP board question was answered with incorrect information.  I don't have much information about the board at all, or how it works.  Please keep that in mind before you tear me apart.


ok, so proceed to do so.

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Re: Suggestions for Improvement
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2009, 05:35:21 pm »

Quote
I mentioned the Sponsor a Highway project on Route 286, which thousands of out of state beach goers use every month to come to Hampton and Seabrook Beaches.  Instead of disallowing the use of the Free State Project name on that sign, the Board should allow it.  So, my advice/suggestion is to allow it, rather than forbid or discourage in state advertising.

I agree with this statement.  I understand why the FSP doesn't advertise in NH.  No new movers are coming from NH to NH.   I would also corroborate that there are thousands of people who drive from their homes in Massachusetts to New Hampshire to visit Hampton Beach.  Route 286 is one of the main arteries to this area.  As I said in my suggestions, I don't think the board should be doing much forbidding with the name and logo.  As if the name "Free State Project" isn't going to get some people (even in NH) to check out the site and read about what the group is all about.  If they're from NH, it might turn them on to other groups that are liberty oriented.  Maybe they'll enjoy the Free State Blogs.  Perhaps they'll tell their libertarian friends on the internets about this great liberty oriented group.  I understand the board not wanting to spend money on ads in NH. . . duh.  What irks me is that when you shut someone down they're not just going to say "whatever" they're going to feel that the effort they want to put in is not good enough for the project they moved for.

286, in my humblest of humble opinions, is one of the best places in the area to attract liberty lovers from Massachusetts.  Frankly, I really don't want to hear about the evil socialists in MA.  There AREEEEEE liberty people.  Myself, PorcupineinNH, Jraxis are three that hail from the commonwealth.  I may not be active as of yet (I've not moved yet) but the other two most definitely are.   Heck, even if those evil statists from MA do see the sign, they might accuse a liberty lover in their own state with being part of the group.  This is how I found the FSP.  . . . a statist friend accused me of being a free stater.  Wonder what site I was on that night?
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