Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 8   Go Down

Author Topic: Why only 776  (Read 22761 times)

hockeymatt

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
Why only 776
« on: November 12, 2009, 11:31:17 pm »

I'm VERY interested in the FSP, but after browsing the site I'm trying to find out why after 6 years there just don't seem to be the numbers you were hoping for?

Is it that people want to move, but can't or don't have the will?

Is it the weather, is it that NH has some sort of strange 2 headed girl that we have to arm wrestle?

What's up...
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 11:48:04 pm by hockeymatt »
Logged

maxxoccupancy

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3659
  • Evil prevails when good men don't vote Libertarian
    • fija.org
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2009, 12:37:03 am »

Check out the "Which State" debate and how many people argued that an Eastern state (especially a New England state) would never pull 20,000 movers.  All of those things have come to pass.  Here are more that weren't anticipated (or were mentioned by just a few):

-wish washy people.  A lot of the more recent prospective movers have been generating excuses faster than we can respond to them. 

-Some of us are trying to sell/recruit, while others are saying who needs them.

-jobs.  Out west, jobs go to the most qualified.  In New England, jobs go to friends of friends, family, etc.

-cold.  Most prospective movers don't know about (or don't believe) the weather here on the seacoast.  It's really not bad.  We only have about 2-3 months on the coast that are worse than jacket weather.

-family.  Split custody, sick parents, girlfriends/spouses, etc.  These are all valid reasons, and some people can't leave family behind.

-medical.  Extreme cold, access to specialists, and other issues keep people bound to one area.

-age.  For various reasons, we have very few older movers.  By far, most of the new movers have been couples, families, and individuals between 20-45, most at the age where they're looking to settle down somewhere permanently.

-moving back out.  Many porcs have moved here only to leave.  Some leave for just a few months, while others intend to leave for good.  Some have become disgruntled about the movement, while others just lose interest.

-do-nothings.  Or folks who do very little.  Many of the folks who move here never lift a finger to do any recruiting.  It's one of the most unusual things to see, in my opinion. 

-introversion.  Most libertarians are intellectual and/or introverted.  They are either not too comfortable talking to strangers or they speak so many levels beyond John Q. Public that they never quite click with people.

-internal fighting and arguing.  This one was predicted from the get go, but not on the scale that we've seen.  Literally every effort I've seen by new folks to identify and solve problems has been met with angry flame wars and personal attacks.  Many problems persist within the effort that cannot be solved because they are never even accepted by members.

-members are not members.  Only the FSP Board has any say in the organization.  Movers are not considered "members," and have no vote or say in anything that FSP Corp. does.  This is not a member owned organization.

-substance abuse.  Drinking (and other drugs) have been a major issue, in my opinion.  Some folks have taken this to excess, and it inhibits their drive to do anything but hold the occasional sign or attend the occasional event.  I am drinking a Blue Moon while writing this, so whatever, eh.

Basically, we don't have a winning, cohesive, united organization.  Numerous attempts have been made to get lots of people behind a strategy, but you usually here something like, "You don't have a right to be dictator!" or "Everyone can just do what they want to." There are lots of strategies that would be successful (recruiting, free town projects, State House stuff) that have failed because the fsp is like ten year olds playing soccer.  Lots of kids are running after the ball, but there's no cohesive strategy.  The Board doesn't really consult the membership like winning teams do, and most folks in the movement don't believe in majority rule, anyway.

In other words, there's no pledge on pledgebank saying, "I'll agree to commit X hours a week to winning strategy Y, but only if 99 other people agree to do the same." If you suggest something like that, instead of getting input or discussion, you get something like, "Okay, FSP Mover XXX, why don't YOU do it."

That's why the counter is still in three digits.
Logged
If you are interested in putting together an IT-creative firm to help provide jobs for liberty folks in the future, send me a Personal Message.
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

rossby

  • Director of Development
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4801
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2009, 01:04:56 am »

No one is obligated to move until there is a total of 20,000 participants signed up, after which they have 5 years to move. Right now, the counter is just under the 50% mark. The Early Movers are exactly that: early. 'Course, just 700-ish have made some pretty big waves.

How do you get 20,000 people to pick up their lives and move from all over the country (and the world) to one spot? That's tough. Just my personal opinion, if it took 20 years, it'd still be amazing.

-I can think of at least 20 people off-hand who would like to move, but directly cite the poor economy as an obstacle.

-For some people, it takes a looong time to arrange a serious move (like myself).


Some time in the next 2-3 years, I'd like to see a "mover kit" put together. :)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 01:15:05 am by B.D. Ross »
Logged

rossby

  • Director of Development
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4801
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2009, 01:28:25 am »

Check out the "Which State" debate and how many people argued that an Eastern state (especially a New England state) would never pull 20,000 movers.

You're such a negative norman! How's FSW doing? ::)


Basically, we don't have a winning, cohesive, united organization.

(@ at Hockeymatt) The FSP doesn't really do political things. It doesn't get involved in activism. It doesn't tell the participants what to do. The FSP is not a political party with an agenda (though some people might prefer it to be). There is no way for the FSP to "win"--except to get 20,000 people to pledge to move to New Hampshire for smaller government.

There's a saying that "the FSP is the bus" to get to New Hampshire. People seem to have their own ideas about the best ways to go about things. Some are more successful than others.
Logged

maxxoccupancy

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3659
  • Evil prevails when good men don't vote Libertarian
    • fija.org
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2009, 01:57:36 am »

That's my answer to the OP.  I've been at this for about seven years, and the problems have pretty much been the same throughout.  Those, as I see it, are basically the reasons that we haven't been able to turn slow growth into rapid growth.  If you try to diagnose and solve problems, you get a lot more negativity than positive results.

Teams succeed, and we are not a team.  I don't see much interest in getting a team together, so most folks will continue to do their own thing, and we'll keep getting the same growth rate.

Is that negative, or just rational?

Anyway, that's why I dedicate most of my time to just recruiting and helping new folks get into New Hampshire.
Logged
If you are interested in putting together an IT-creative firm to help provide jobs for liberty folks in the future, send me a Personal Message.
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

maxxoccupancy

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3659
  • Evil prevails when good men don't vote Libertarian
    • fija.org
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2009, 02:12:51 am »

BD, you haven't moved yet?  WTF?  New Hampshire is where it's at, dude.  You need to be here trolling--not in some random state out there where there are no other debatatarians to talk to.  Just last Tuesday, there were like 40 people at Taproom.  This is where it's at, bud.  New Hampshire is the center of it all.

Be here, or be... uh, not... free.

Do'h!
Logged
If you are interested in putting together an IT-creative firm to help provide jobs for liberty folks in the future, send me a Personal Message.
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

hockeymatt

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2009, 03:13:51 am »

Thanks for your response and the accompanying debate.

It looks like FSP needs leaders...without them you are just another attractive voting bloc for politicians.

The excuses for some people not moving seem to be just that....excuses.  Obviously, these seem to cement my lack of faith in the majority of Americans to accept responsibility to better themselves.  Most NOT all, just want white teeth, starbucks in the morning and a good show at night on the TV.  That is their right, but obviously that is why our country seems to be decaying right at this very moment.

I guess its just the Marine in me that is disappointed to see what is happening to the country I thought was worth defending, but the apathy people have is astonishing....sad

I commend you for your work and the challenge you have.
Logged

maxxoccupancy

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3659
  • Evil prevails when good men don't vote Libertarian
    • fija.org
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2009, 03:17:58 am »

Join us here in the Live Free or Die state.  The folks who've made the move left the apathetic excuse makers behind.  Those of us who are here are involved in state and local politics, educating and speaking out.  We're recruiting, writing Op-Eds, getting on public access, exposing corruption and abuses, and getting bad pols fired.

There are some bad dudes in politics, and they are getting their asses handed to them on a silver platter with each new election.
Logged
If you are interested in putting together an IT-creative firm to help provide jobs for liberty folks in the future, send me a Personal Message.
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

FreeStyle

  • Guest
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2009, 06:16:37 am »

I've wondered that myself.  Some of the reasons maxx gave are good, some aren't.  I'll be up very shortly.  I expect to close next week.
Logged

Floridian

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 321
  • Friend of FSP
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2009, 06:39:33 am »


I guess its just the Marine in me that is disappointed to see what is happening to the country I thought was worth defending, but the apathy people have is astonishing....sad
 

Listen up devil dog.  :) That's exactly what the other side wants you to think.  We are not going to win the culture war with that attitude. Now is not the time to give up. 

Read the statement of intent again.  The mission and intent are clear.  I imagine that the founders of this movement are disappointed that the overall progress is slower than hoped, but it is still moving in the right direction.  From what I have heard, there are a lot of people who move to be a part of the liberty movement, but do not sign up with FSP; this probably offsets the Free Staters who leave NH.  Given the national political climate these days, ever more statist, there is a building backlash that will probably increase FSP participation.




Logged
Tu ne cede malis.

lunchbox

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2009, 08:07:09 am »

I find the 700+ that have moved already to be a great sign.

The fact is, no one is "obligated" to actually move until 20000 people have made the same decision to sign up.

Logged

Dreepa

  • First 1000
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5124
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2009, 08:08:11 am »

Some of Max's points are valid.. others aren't.

There is no unified team here on the ground...because you can't with so many 'individuals'.

I think that mostly is because people are COMMITTED to move until we get 20K signers.  Even then there will be some people not moving.
Of the 9K who signed up... basically you have to commit to moving and then the rest will fall into place... at least get the PLAN to move.... even if it takes a few years to execute.

With only 700ish people on the ground we are making headway.. lots and lots of natives.

Come up and join us.

Everyone who is thinking of joining should visit in March www.freestateproject.org/libertyforum.
Logged

creaganlios

  • Guest
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2009, 08:27:27 am »

I think it's also important to note that some of us got very excited very early and made the move even before the state was chosen...like me, so we don't count :-(
Logged

maxxoccupancy

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3659
  • Evil prevails when good men don't vote Libertarian
    • fija.org
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2009, 10:31:28 am »

I've wondered that myself.  Some of the reasons maxx gave are good, some aren't.  I'll be up very shortly.  I expect to close next week.

I've been doing recruiting for seven years, now, so these are the issues that keep repeating themselves.

Thom S, you can still sign up for the Next 1,000, as long as you're becoming a liberty activist here because of fsp.  If you moved early or late, it doesn't matter.

None of the original signers are committed because there was a time limit built in to the original pledge that only applied, IIRC, if we got 20,000 signers within five years.  That point came and went a long time ago, so the original pledge was meaningless.

As for the need for teamwork, some recognize the need for it, others eschew it.  Some are emphatic about everyone being required to operate separately.  No one states this as a "requirement," of course, but the emphatic rejection has been there.  Some efforts require more than 40 hours a week of activism in order to succeed.  Some projects require more time, money, and effort than one person can reasonably be expected to put forth.  It makes it difficult to put teams together when there are so many who interrupt the process of getting a team together and loudly insist that, "You can't just be dictator and tell everyone what to do!"

It may seem like I exaggerate, but that's an oft heard quote.  Many of us who've tried to organize efforts have become disenchanted by the whole herding housecats routine.

Try identifying and solving problems within the fsp, and I think you'll see why it's so difficult to get anything done.  You're better off just getting involved with locals.  That's what I do.
Logged
If you are interested in putting together an IT-creative firm to help provide jobs for liberty folks in the future, send me a Personal Message.
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

anon37268573

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 553
  • First1000
Re: Why only 776
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2009, 10:46:27 am »

Check out the "Which State" debate and how many people argued that an Eastern state (especially a New England state) would never pull 20,000 movers.  All of those things have come to pass.  Here are more that weren't anticipated (or were mentioned by just a few):

I think you forgot the most important item that has had the deepest impact - the economy.  Many people own homes in other states that they haven't been able to sell.  There are some people out there who have been trying to sell a home and move since 2006.  Even if people are able to sell their home in another state, it's very difficult to find a job right now beyond a minimum wage type position.  And, that just doesn't cut it for a family of three or four.

I think once an economic and jobs recovery starts taking place (2013-2014 probably) we'll see a ton of new movers in very rapid succession.

For now, I think we should spend less time on recruiting and trying to get people to sign up and move and focus on trying to fix the legislative things that make New Hampshire unattractive.  For example, I think we should work on trying to get some bills passed to make it easer to form corporations so that it's not so difficult for people to move, start small businesses, and hire other others who want to move as part of the free state project.   Vermont is currently kicking New Hampshire's ass when it comes to the difficulty involved in get a company incorporated and operating. 

Yes, that's right, a bunch of socialist are kicking our ass at capitalism... brutally!!!


   - anon


Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 8   Go Up