Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: How Will I Benefit From Moving?  (Read 6825 times)

onyx_goddess

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 227
  • Choking Screams Their Liquid Dreams
    • Robestone
How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« on: June 01, 2003, 07:34:56 pm »

I really like this whole idea, and I've already talked to my wife about it, and we both agree that once the vote is in on which state, we will strongly favor that state the next time I'm looking for a new job.  But, here's my main problem.  Pretending that all things are equal, what is the actual benefit I can expect from moving to the Free State?  If my salary is about the same, the cost of living, etc, are all the same, then what will I actually gain?  If on the other hand, those factors aren't the same, then why shouldn't I pick the better state over the Free State?

Let me break down my concerns this way:

First, I don't care enough about "personal freedom" laws to move to another state for them.

I live in Missouri.  We have anti-smoking laws, seatbelt laws, etc.  I'm against them, but I'm not going to move because of them.  Next, Missouri doesn't have legalized drugs, complete legalized gambling, legalized prostitution, etc.  I'm in favor of all these things being legal, but since I don't practive any of those, I would definitely not move for those things.

Second, I wouldn't expect to see financial benefits for around 10 years, and there might be financial detriments.

If I moved to the Free State, we all know that taxes won't be drastically reduced immediately.  And, even if they were, how much of my income would it really increase?  Let's say it would equal a 10% raise as soon as we get some major tax reform.  Well, that's nice, but that's only enough to make me move if the salary is initially comparable to what I'm making.  And, it would have to offset any reasons I have for staying here - friends, family, current job being a good steady job.

So, finally, it seems to me that this move is for idealistic people who are moving for the principle, and not for any actual benefits.

I actually WANT to move to the Free State for idealistic reasons, however, my practical reasons seem to make me want to stay here instead.  For example, I have a wife and 3 kids, and a steady job is very important to me.

Please help me to see where I might be wrong, because I definitely like this idea.
Logged
Happiness is fleeting
When your heart is barely beating

RidleyReport

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3530
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2003, 10:48:46 pm »

Onyx:  

Thanks for getting involved, even if only to post your ideas.

In answer to your question, I can tell you why *I'm* moving.  

1)  Wouldn't want to miss the fun.  From what I hear, those who are actually visiting and meeting in the candidate states are having more fun than you can shake a fist at.  Living there would hopefully be a continuation of that excitement.

2) The FS would likely be a great place to be in the event of a cataclysmic national emergency.   Probably only a 5% chance of that in my lifetime, but that should be enough to weigh on anyone's decision.

3) While most of us Porcupines favor a huge range of freedoms for others, I guess you ultimately have to ask yourself what freedoms you lack where you are and how big a deal it is to get them back.  For me, the freedom to keep at least 90% of what I earn is the key... that would take a lot of time and a victory over the feds.  

However, other freedoms like relative freedom from crime and the real, practical liberty to just walk to work with a handgun strapped on if I want....that would be sweet.  And that already exists in some of the candidate states; no one even bats an eye.

Many such freedoms already exist in those states; that's why they're on the list.

More ideas later perhaps...these are only 3 of many reasons I have for moving.
Logged
http://RidleyReport.com
http://NHexit.com - If Britain can do it, New Hampshire can do it

phylinidaho

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
  • Friend of the FSP
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2003, 10:50:29 pm »


I actually WANT to move to the Free State for idealistic reasons, however, my practical reasons seem to make me want to stay here instead.  For example, I have a wife and 3 kids, and a steady job is very important to me.

Please help me to see where I might be wrong, because I definitely like this idea.
You are not necessarily wrong, but perhaps it will benefit you to know my reasons for joining the Free State Project last year at the age of 73.
Quote
I live in Missouri.  We have anti-smoking laws, seatbelt laws, etc.  I'm against them, but I'm not going to move because of them.  
I have lived in the Pacific Northwest essentially all of my life. It is probably not much different from Missouri. When I was growing up there were no anti-smoking laws, seatbelt laws, etc. These laws have crept up on us so slowly that one must look back over a lifetime similar to mine in order to fully appreciate how monster government is growing. The situation may not be bad enough yet, to make the move seem necessary. But if something is not done to reverse the trend the loss may be irreversible in your lifetime (and that of my grandchildren) So I have joined to assure that my great-grandchildren may know the freedom that is supposed to be the American heritage.
Quote
Second, I wouldn't expect to see financial benefits for around 10 years, and there might be financial detriments.
You are wise to consider this possibility. If you do not care enough to endure possible financial hardship, perhaps the FSP is not for you.
Quote
So, finally, it seems to me that this move is for idealistic people who are moving for the principle, and not for any actual benefits.
That is my appraisal of the project. I know that some members believe they will accomplish immediate personal benefit, but I agree with you that this is not likely. I will move because I want the satisfaction of knowing that I did what I could to preserve Liberty for future generations.
 :)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2003, 10:54:38 pm by phylinidaho »
Logged

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2003, 11:10:10 pm »


First, I don't care enough about "personal freedom" laws to move to another state for them.
   ....  I'm in favor of all these things being legal, but since I don't practice any of those, I would definitely not move for those things.

Second, I wouldn't expect to see financial benefits for around 10 years, and there might be financial detriments.
  .... how much of my income would it really increase?  Let's say it would equal a 10% raise as soon as we get some major tax reform.  Well, that's nice, but that's only enough to make me move if the salary is initially comparable to what I'm making.

So, finally, it seems to me that this move is for idealistic people who are moving for the principle, and not for any actual benefits.


Yep, you are absolutely 100% correct, as I've been trying to point out (though not as well as you) for the last few months.
I almost never start a thread, only respond to other threads; but one time I did start one on the Crackerbarrel about "What can you do in a Free State that you can't do now?"  Most of the people couldn't think of a single thing they really wanted to move to a Free State for, except to get lower taxes, which as I pointed out even a TOTAL REDUCTION OF ALL TAXES ALL THE WAY TO ZERO TAXES would not make up for their loss of income.

The ones who are actually going to make it work are the (few) pure idealistic ones who will essentially do it for a lark, and those who ARE affected by the "personal freedom" laws.

I have both motivations - and I am also motivated by a desire to live among people who want to be free of Victimless Crime Laws generally, even if their particular interest is not mine.  That's not exactly idealism, more for comfort level.

I will be moving.  I cannot see why most of the others I've seen posting here will move though.  I believe that, when the time comes, they will belatedly make the same analysis you have made, and decide not to move after all.
I believe that we ought to target those who do have a good reason to move to a Free State, and stop trying to appeal to everyone.  It helps our cause not at all to sign up lots of people who have no rational reason to move.  Real Freedom Lovers abound.  We don't need to puff up our ranks with dilettantes.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2003, 11:13:29 pm by Zack Bass »
Logged

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2003, 12:23:41 am »


First, I don't care enough about "personal freedom" laws to move to another state for them.

Second, I wouldn't expect to see financial benefits for around 10 years, and there might be financial detriments.
Please help me to see where I might be wrong, because I definitely like this idea.

Even before the FSP, at the age of 18, I decided to move out of TN because of the greatly oppressive government to NV or TX.  The reasons were basicly: 1 The right to self-defense, 2 To keep more of what I earn (even if I make less, this is entirely an issue of ideology for me), 3 Be around other freedom lovers, 4 Live with MUCH less crime, and 5 live a more friendly, simple, rural life.

THE FSP came around and changed my plans.  My reasons are still mostly the same, but any of the FSP states will offer all of these things to the same or a greater degree than NV or TX.  Heck, WY, SD, and NH already offer all of these things.  Time will only make things better in the Free State.

The other main reason is my desire to be an activist for freedom.  When I die I hope to leave most of my money freedom causes.  Even now, I am giving quite a bit away.  I give even more of my time help freedom.  I've heard stories and read about what America used to be.  I hope that, someday, it will be even more than it was then.  

Also, the fact that the LP is getting no where (neither are the Republican Liberty Foundation or the Constitution Party) made me decide we have to do something else.

I am reallt not concerned about money.  If am currently working 2 jobs and I plan on working 2 jobs for a long time (until I have my house and land paid off).  Once I do that, I can start giving more money to freedom causes and quit my 2nd job.
Logged

Aaron

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 140
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2003, 01:15:07 am »

Let me break down my concerns this way:

First, I don't care enough about "personal freedom" laws to move to another state for them.
...
Please help me to see where I might be wrong, because I definitely like this idea.

The former statement really cuts to the heart of the matter.  If you don't care enough about "personal freedom" to move, then why should you?  As for your plea for assistance in the latter statement, what exactly are you asking us?  Your values are your values.  We cannot change them.  Do you think that you are confused about what your values really are and therefore need us to explain to you what your values really should be?  If you do not understand the practical applications of libertarian philosophy and, more specifically, how these principles can serve to bring about wealth, prosperity, peace, harmony, and a greater chance of happiness for the society that practices it; I will gladly try to persuade you.  But if you already understand and agree with the principles of individual liberty, I cannot persuade you that you should value their pursuit over taking care of your family and providing them with the lifestyle they are accustomed to.

I disagree with Zack's analysis of those who participate in this forum.  I believe those who have signed up will actually move.   It is hard to tell about the members who do not participate in this forum.  Personally, I give them the benefit of the doubt since I have no evidence to doubt their sincerity in signing up in the first place.  There are many reasons for not participating in this forum.  I probably would not if I did not have a high speed connection.

For me, I signed up when I realized that I would be ashamed for not giving this project the most support I can offer.  After all, the questions you ask are almost the same as the ones every member of George Washington's 100% volunteer army had to make.  The only difference is we have to ask, "Do I value liberty enough to move?"  And they had to ask, "Do I value liberty enough to die?"  Many answered no; but, fortunately for us, enough answered yes to make a difference.  I can remember asserting during political discussions in school that I would have burnt my draft card in Vietnam, but I would have fought the British in 1776.  Thus I would feel the shame of a hypocrite if I were not willing to do something so much less than put my life on the line.

That does not mean that I feel anyone who believes in individual liberty should feel ashamed for not participating.  There are excellent reasons for not wanting to commit to an out of state move followed by a dedication to political activism.  Your stated possible reason is among the best:  your commitment to family.  However, my point is that no one can make this decision for you.  And no one should try to persuade you that your values are wrong.

If you decide that the commitment to move interferes too much with your other values, we would love to have you as a "Friend of the FSP".  There is a lot you and others can do from without the "Free State" to help the cause of individual liberty.  What ever you decide, we only ask that you make an honest assessment of the level of participation you are willing to commit before making a decision.
Logged

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2003, 01:55:05 am »


I disagree with Zack's analysis of those who participate in this forum.  I believe those who have signed up will actually move.
  ... I have no evidence to doubt their sincerity in signing up in the first place.


I still think that the attitude of a lot of the posters here is unrealistic, in that they think they will be better off with less taxation or they think of Freedom without realizing that what they like to do is possible in many States already and does not require a Free State.
But I want to clarify that I don't question their sincerity or their commitment.  I just think when they get down to the actual move they'll realize there is no real advantage for them.

Logged

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2003, 01:56:55 am »

Onyx,

Check out this article I posted awhile back under the "General Libertarian Discussion" header.  It's the story of why a libertarian lady (with family) found herself concerned for the future, and is a great reminder of why all of this is worth doing:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=979

BobW

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 453
  • I'm a llama!
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2003, 02:59:52 am »

Hi Onyx,

I've moved all my life and can say if the cost of moving is considered, the move is a loss.

Your bold print intros are correct.

I plan to move but I am not idealistic.  I'm a realist.  I envision no actual benefits as you discuss.

After relocating, I'll need to work also.

There's no "right or wrong" to all this.  There are people in Montana who attended a GOP meeting last month with 3 children in school and progressing.  There are people in Wyoming active in the Democratic Party who might have arrived from Texas 10 years ago.

Your concerns are legitimate to yourself and your family.  There are no "answers".  It involves your values and interests and how you and your wife balance them out.


BobW
Logged

onyx_goddess

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 227
  • Choking Screams Their Liquid Dreams
    • Robestone
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2003, 06:55:06 am »

Well, your posts have actually really got me thinking.

My two reasons for not moving are very valid, but I've now begun thinking of a third factor that makes me want to move.

I hate big government; I hate taxes; I hate liberal nanny laws; I literally get angry whenever I start thinking too much about it.

Maybe I actually do care enough from an ideological stand point.  I often don't care all that much about the specific laws taken one at a time, but when I step back and take a look at it all at once, I have a hard time calming down, and my wife will testify that I very often tell her "I HATE X!" where x is whatever I just read in the local paper.  I've never been much of an idealist though, and maybe I'm just a wimp.  I'd prefer to be one of the free-loaders who moves to the Free State once things start "kicking in", but as my very first paragraph in my first post states, once the vote is in, the next time I move, I will absolutely look primarily for a new job in the Free State.  And who knows, maybe before then I'll get the courage to fight a little harder for something I really do believe in.  Or maybe something will happen to me to shake me up.

I really hope the Free State happens, because whether I decide to be a Freedom Fighter or a Free-Loader, I think the 20,000 can make a difference.
Logged
Happiness is fleeting
When your heart is barely beating

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2003, 09:31:33 am »


I hate big government; I hate taxes; I hate liberal nanny laws; I literally get angry whenever I start thinking too much about it.


And you just made me come up with another reason to move:  HEALTH.
I'm not kidding.  It's physically unhealthful to have this aggravation.

Quote
 .... I often don't care all that much about the specific laws taken one at a time, but when I step back and take a look at it all at once, I have a hard time calming down


And that is why a gradualist approach won't work.  We must strike all the bad Laws at once.  There is little support for repealing any one of them alone.

You never hear a Quebec Separatist campaigning on a platform of "Let's secede 10% this year and work for more support next year while we compromise with the opposition."

Logged

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5724
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2003, 09:49:37 am »

What the FSP would mean to me is a restoration of control over the basic conditions of my life.  In the current system, I feel significantly controlled, as though many of the decisions affecting my life are made by others over whom I have little influence.  A Free State appeals to my basic sense of who I am as a human being: a moral, rational being with a right to autonomy.  This goes far beyond the concrete, tangible benefits of economic freedom or personal freedom.  I guess the FSP appealed to me in the beginning because I realized I have only one life to live, and I don't want to live it in fear or complacency; I don't want to be a fattened sheep in a pen.  I want to say that in the end, I did something with my life and lived it according to those higher principles I believe in.

Maybe that's idealism. ;)
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

George Reich

  • FSP Participant
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
  • I just *love* it when Hank and Dagny brainstorm!
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2003, 09:51:39 am »

Most of the people couldn't think of a single thing they really wanted to move to a Free State for, except to get lower taxes, which as I pointed out even a TOTAL REDUCTION OF ALL TAXES ALL THE WAY TO ZERO TAXES would not make up for their loss of income.

You always seem to assume that everyone will have a lower income in the free state. Why?  
Logged
If everyone were rich there would be no need for government assistance. If everyone were rich all children could attend private schools. If everyone were rich, government would become superfluous. Read the free e-book at this site:

http://www.scienceofgettingrich.net

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5724
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2003, 09:57:59 am »

You never hear a Quebec Separatist campaigning on a platform of "Let's secede 10% this year and work for more support next year while we compromise with the opposition."

Actually, you do.

<pedantic>
The Parti Quebecois always rejected "total independence" in favor of the "sovereignty-association" formula, by which Quebec would share a military and currency with Canada but gain formal independence.  In the first referendum (1979), they actually divided the process into 2 stages.  The first referendum was actually on whether to begin negotiations toward independence.  If the first referendum had succeeded, a second referendum would have been held on whether to accept the results of the negotiations.  In the event, that 1st referendum failed, 59-41%.  The PQ realized that this was too cumbersome a way of going about it, so the 2nd referendum (1995) was on just 1 question, with a declaration of sovereignty to follow immediately after a "yes" vote.  Of course, that referendum failed by less than a percentage point, but the PQ retained power.  By this year's election, the PQ had become so unpopular that they finally abandoned their historic commitment to sovereignty-association in favor of "confederation" (the option advocated by the libertarian Action Democratique Quebecois, a small third party).  They still lost.
</pedantic>
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:How Will I Benefit From Moving?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2003, 04:32:01 pm »





You never hear a Quebec Separatist campaigning on a platform of "Let's secede 10% this year and work for more support next year while we compromise with the opposition."


Actually, you do.
The Parti Quebecois always rejected "total independence" in favor of the "sovereignty-association" formula, by which Quebec would share a military and currency with Canada but gain formal independence.
  ....  By this year's election, the PQ had become so unpopular that they finally abandoned their historic commitment to sovereignty-association in favor of "confederation"


But that's hardly ten percent separation at a time.  It's more like haggling about 75% vs. 100%.
You can't secede gradually, one inch at a time.  There is no comparison to the FSP gradualists' notion of one or two Laws at a time.  That is unworkable.

Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up