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Author Topic: Children in a free state  (Read 20399 times)

BobW

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2003, 11:09:08 pm »

Hi Rhythm Star,

Ref # 52;

I am going to present a guarantee here.  Corruption wil not be rooted out nor prosecuted nor punished.  Some high-profile, easily adaptable to TV coverage cases, will be for the symbolism - but that's all.

The laws, police forces and prisons are established and run to serve a different era.  There is no way a block of 100 federal investigators at GS13 level can compete against a block of 500 private sector defenders earning US$3K.  This is what is going on now.  Save for the high profile cases suitable for broadcast coverage such as Enron, the big stuff is unknown to the American public.

Corps and not for profits can be viewed as a distinction without a difference.  Look at the payroll, the executive compensation packages and the ability to contract.  Then, look at the contracts.

There IS a roadblock to correction and it is not political inertia.  A "political machine" is needed.  As of 15 June 03, we do not have one. Maybe later.  I'm ready to move.

My comment re utility cash funds = (paid vacations).  Those funds encompass the slush funds.  By an Arkansas coincidence (term coined by Wesley Pruden, Editor of WASHINGTON TIMES), their meetings are sort of like ...

Please don't think I only address public utilities.  Two years ago, all the States Veterans Affairs Committee (about 40 states have their own state agency that is not critical to the citizenry)  had their annual meeting in San Juan, Puerto Rico!  We didn't win on this one but some of our adversies are now scared because we monitor.

California isn't the worse place.  It's just a good place to report from because the broadcast journalists have good background scenery.  

Unless and until we move we are in a combined beer joint/coffee club.

Ref a for profit corp; pro forma, the shares might be available for purchase but as for buying in;...you still might need permission from the corporation.  Even in not for profits, don't label the B of D as holy as Oliver Cromwell's Round Heads.  These systems are rigged.

Collective enterprize isn't the problem.  An environment where the political aspects are addressed and maintained repeat - and maintained -is needed.

Until a move and a practiced machine in place, United Way will continue to compensate their honchos more than the rewards given to America's engineers who build things, invent things and repair things.

BobW
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BobW

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2003, 11:09:45 pm »

Hi Rhythm Star,

Ref # 52;

I am going to present a guarantee here.  Corruption wil not be rooted out nor prosecuted nor punished.  Some high-profile, easily adaptable to TV coverage cases, will be for the symbolism - but that's all.

The laws, police forces and prisons are established and run to serve a different era.  There is no way a block of 100 federal investigators at GS13 level can compete against a block of 500 private sector defenders earning US$3K.  This is what is going on now.  Save for the high profile cases suitable for broadcast coverage such as Enron, the big stuff is unknown to the American public.

Corps and not for profits can be viewed as a distinction without a difference.  Look at the payroll, the executive compensation packages and the ability to contract.  Then, look at the contracts.

There IS a roadblock to correction and it is not political inertia.  A "political machine" is needed.  As of 15 June 03, we do not have one. Maybe later.  I'm ready to move.

My comment re utility cash funds = (paid vacations).  Those funds encompass the slush funds.  By an Arkansas coincidence (term coined by Wesley Pruden, Editor of WASHINGTON TIMES), their meetings are sort of like ...

Please don't think I only address public utilities.  Two years ago, all the States Veterans Affairs Committee (about 40 states have their own state agency that is not critical to the citizenry)  had their annual meeting in San Juan, Puerto Rico!  We didn't win on this one but some of our adversies are now scared because we monitor.

California isn't the worse place.  It's just a good place to report from because the broadcast journalists have good background scenery.  

Unless and until we move we are in a combined beer joint/coffee club.

Ref a for profit corp; pro forma, the shares might be available for purchase but as for buying in;...you still might need permission from the corporation.  Even in not for profits, don't label the B of D as holy as Oliver Cromwell's Round Heads.  These systems are rigged.

Collective enterprize isn't the problem.  An environment where the political aspects are addressed and maintained repeat - and maintained -is needed.

Until a move and a practiced machine in place, United Way will continue to compensate their honchos more than the rewards given to America's engineers who build things, invent things and repair things.

BobW
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BobW

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2003, 02:07:05 am »

Hi Jeanius,

Re # 54;

You've got my agreement.

I see the real problem as those agencies operating as fiefdoms.  The appratus is away from public view and uses methods from a bygone era.

Agree that there is no 100% solution.  

BobW
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BobW

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2003, 02:17:28 am »

Hi Rhythm Star,

Re # 55;

I attended a demo of the new MRI lie detector test.

This new machine has restictions on it's use and utility in the US and the political subdivisions.

As of 16 June 03, it will not be used regarding varacity issues concerning:
-California Board of Equilization
-ARAMCO Saudi Arabia
-Moody's

-etc < (not enough space)

RS, the problems are not technical.

BobW

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Zack Bass

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2003, 02:59:08 am »

Zack says:
Quote
I don't consider a share I can't sell as something I "own".
And if I do own one it is not silly to sell it, since I get something of value in exchange.  Heck, I'm moving anyhow.

OK.  Can I buy your right to vote in the Free State?  I think maybe if I just buy all the voting rights, then I can be King and you guys can all work at my garbage-oil plant.  :)


No problem.  Yes, I believe we ought to be allowed to sell or contract anything we like, including Parental Rights and Votes.
But you're going to be disappointed.  In the Free State, a Vote won't mean what it means here.  The Tyranny of the Majority will be over.  The power controlled by the Vote will be minimal.
Most of our present problems arise from the fact that some people can get what they want by influencing Votes rather than by being productive citizens.  I intend to change that.

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Zack Bass

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2003, 03:11:35 am »


Suppose that a non-invasive technology existed that could tell if a person was lying with 100% accuracy.  Assume that the device had been proven effective in all cases where the subject knew they were telling a falsehood.

Should the state be able to use such a device to pre-screen alleged perps?  Kinda like a mental Breath-a-lyzer?   Or, would this violate protections against self-incrimination?


Are you asking this in the context of The Free State?  Or in our current mess?

In the Free State, where the State has little power except to protect us from one another, sure, this is a great idea, I am all for it!

In the USA, never in a million years.  These guys are not to be trusted.  They can hurt you.

Of course this "violates" the current protection against self-incrimination, but in a decent setup I don't think we need such a special Law.  Think about this:  Even in our current setup, there is no "protection" against being Forced to testify against someone else, only against yourself!  Cops are always badgering perps to rat on each other, and there is no Fifth Amendment restriction on how they may proceed.  It's all Admissible Evidence, and no one bats an eye.  Hell, they even pay snitches (usually with guaranteed lighter sentences) to tell tales; but the Defense may not make any payment of any sort for exculpatory testimony.

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Margot Keyes (SUNSHINE)

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2003, 10:53:44 pm »

 :)Michelle in Oregon!!

Good to meet another mother .....and fellow atheist!! Though I consider myself far less religious, I am a recovering non-Catholic and have felt persecution for raising MY children against the "expected beliefs" of my parents and family.  Ah well....their loss.

Anyway... I believe the gov. has no bus. being involved with children, either for abuse or education (same thing in some cases ;)) so my vote is for Privatization.  Whether law firms handle court cases pro bono, or a private company handles these issues for a fee on a regular basis...if it is out of the government's hands it is better than it is today and will undoubtedly garner better results for the child.

Well, good luck with college and hopefully one day we will meet!

Double Mint Mom in Minnesota
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Any alleged 'right' of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right.
-- Ayn Rand

MajesticLeo

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2003, 07:07:37 am »

Sunshine, welcome.

As for child abuse, or rather the stopping of child abuse, it can NEVER be "out of the government's hands" entirely.  Prosecution of abusers must be done through the court system (The Government), unless you advocate formation of vigilante groups for that purpose (which would then, defacto,  become a part of "The Government"), which I am sure you are not doing.

Child Protective Services are an abomination, probably doing much more harm than good, because of their lack of need for proof before they act.  I personally have friends who were foster parents who had their lives turned upside down because someone got mad at them and reported them as abusing their foster children by "practicing Witchcraft".  Foster children were summarily removed from the home and they were subjected to investigation, which of course proved false, but cast aspersions on their character publicly.  Having couseled adults who were abused as children has not given me "the answer".  The fear and shame involved generally keeps them from self-reporting, that and the desire to "not get the parent in trouble cause they love them".  Abusers, whether of children or spouses, are generally very adept at creating the impression such abuse is in response to actions of the abused, thus "if they hadn't done such and such I wouldn't have to be doing this to you".    

However, this does not address your concern to remove all government influence from the lives of children.  As I said before, I do not feel government influence per se is bad.  I think it needs to be minimal, monitored by the parents, and control of education should be at the local level with much input by parents.  I know I am not presenting a "solution" and apologize for the vagueness.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 07:08:08 am by MajesticLeo »
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Herbalist

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2003, 05:07:52 pm »

I just had to pop into this discussion, as a non-Christian mother and libertarian --

My hope for a truly free society is one in which the community is at the nexus of people's lives, and in a community where everybody is known, abuse would be less likely - more support of wives and mothers, more shame for the abusers - and community pressures could be brought to bear on abusive parents & spouses.

In such a community, a person who is known to abuse his/her family/spouse would be "shunned" while the abused would be taken in and supported by the community until they could manage for themselves, make a new life, whatever.

Not a perfect solution, perhaps a bit too utopian, but a dream nevertheless!  Also a bit easier than trying to harness technology ;)

H, an earth mother
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LeopardPM

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2003, 07:26:02 pm »

thanks for 'popping' in , herbalist!
in regard to your ideas of community, I believe this will be the natural tendency in a free state: without the government trying to take all the responsibility for everything away from us, we will be forced to be responsible... this also means that we will very much like to know who our neighbors are.  We also will naturally form neighborhood associations in an effort to keep the values which we all have in common with each other.

For instance: If a group of people do not want an oil refinery in their neighborhood, they will get together and attach covenants to their respective land deeds that restrict such endeavors.  The same goes for allowing naked people to walk down their streets or anything else that people decide they want to restrict.  Don't be afraid of all these possible 'crazy' rules popping up all over; having attaching a covenant to ones property will also decrease its value thereby allowing market forces to overall effect everyones 'rules'.  This means that, sure, someone could attach a covenant to his property that says,"All commerce or visitation on this property can only be done by a person without any clothing".  Imagine trying to sell that property to someone else?  I know I won't buy it!...

yours,
michael
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Margot Keyes (SUNSHINE)

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2003, 11:03:26 pm »

 :)Thanks for the welcome, Magestic Leo.  I doubt if anyone has all the answers to making the Free State  (and someday the world?) a better place.  My only thoughts on this thread are that the more families and communities are involved in the lives of children and the LESS government is, then the better.  There is no absolutely no government, nor absolutely only families-- but a very disproportunate mix of the two with the higher portion being with families/communities.

Herbalist I agree with what your ideas are - you may call them utopian, I call them hopeful and I hope we can work to achieve them!!  :D

Have a great day all!
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Any alleged 'right' of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right.
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LeopardPM

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2003, 01:32:58 am »

Sunshine,
I agree with you, but its important to note that this could easily be put forth into economic terms...

There is a 'demand' for proper upbringing of children
Currently the government is attempting to do so thru various programs, education, etc - it has the exclusive use of force on its side which prevents the free market from working.
If the government were out of the equation, then this 'demand' would be filled by the parents, neighbors, and communities - much more efficiently and with better results...

so, LESS government will naturally bring about MORE Parenting and community involvement....

my thoughts only,
michael
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