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Author Topic: Children in a free state  (Read 20056 times)

michLinoregon

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Children in a free state
« on: June 01, 2003, 03:25:27 pm »

Whereas I believe in the fact that government should not be intrusive into our lives, I wonder about the fate of children should they be victims of abuse in a free state.

The government should not be in charge of the family, but since they won't be, who will be? Would the abusers be prosecuted under normal initiation of force laws? Wouldn't that raise the status of children to having the status of adults? Which rights should they have and which shouldn't they? I have some views on this, but they just don't seem to mesh up consistently with my values and then I feel like a bleeding heart haha!

Right now they have power they really shouldn't have, they have the power to ruin lives if they so chose. So do you guys have any thoughts that would help me along in my logic here? I'd really appreciate any discussion on this.

Respectfully,

Michelle In Oregon
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BobW

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2003, 04:55:01 pm »

Hi Michael,

I don't work the topic nor have any background in this field.

Since you seek discussion, may I suggest you glance at some of the national think tank sites, eg Heritage, Cato, ThomasJeffersonInst.org, etc

I believe Dr Wade Horn used to have a site.  It might still be around.  

If I run into anything, I'll post it here.

BobW
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michLinoregon

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2003, 05:04:16 pm »

Bob,

Thanks, and that's Michelle  ;D. I kind of wanted to know how the people who are actually agreeing to participate in this project feel. Rather than people who have not necessarily agreed to participate.

I am a mother and am concerned with the plight of children in abuse situations. I don't want to take control of the family away from the parents, but when they clearly abuse their position who will represent the child's best interest? I guess on this position I can come off as socialist, but don't get me wrong, I think the government has no place raising or educating our children.

I guess I'll check out the sites you told me about and see if this clears up my contradiction. Thanks for your help!

Respectfully,
Michelle In Oregon
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BobW

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2003, 05:21:19 pm »

Hi Michelle,

You're no socialist.  

Government is not ipso facto evil.

Big government is evil

Any size abusive government is evil

The state represents the child in the absence of the parent(s).  Nothing strange here.

I'm not familiar with this field.  I too, am a parent with my daughter in college.  If you are interested in this area, do check out the several sites.  There are organizations who specialize in this.  

Those participating at FSP probably mirror your personal political views regarding the best interests of a child.  My views are the same as yours.


(Please excuse my spelling of your name in my initial post salutation.  I am the product of the public schools.)

BobW
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michLinoregon

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2003, 05:34:48 pm »

It's okay Bob!

I do believe that big gov't is evil, but have you ever heard of the "foot in the door" phenomenon? If they ask for a little from you in the interest of something apparently beneficial or at the very least not too harmless, it's only a matter of time until they ask for more from you, for more intrusive programs. Whenever gov't gets into anything whether it's schooling, helping the poor, fixing streets, delivering mail it asks for bigger and bigger pieces of the pie monetarily and asks bigger sacrifices from the givers. They remind me of car salesmen. I used to work at a dealership as an administrative assistant and one of their philosophies was "leave no money on the table." So they ask you to give till it hurts and only offer pathos as evidence that one should do it.

The more my eyes open to what is happening on this planet, the more I sometimes wish I'd never woke up and taken notice. I know that sounds a little cowardly but I want so much to do something about this, yet I feel like a speck of sand facing a tsunami! heh! Of course here in Oregon I am routinely called heartless and misguided. Being a Libertarian in college is no bowl of cherries either! But I will continue to get some resolution on this matter and seek out other rational viewpoints. I thank you for your imput so far.

Respectfully,
Michelle
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2003, 06:04:09 pm »

To allow government a proper role in preventing abuse but keep it from overstepping its bounds, I think we should abolish all "protective services" agencies and allow the government to take abusive parents to court, where they must prove their case beyond reasonable doubt.  I don't believe in taking children from their parents unless the parents can be charged with an actual crime.
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cathleeninsc

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2003, 08:10:19 am »

Michelle,

I don't think there is a slam dunk libertarian answer to this. But I would much rather face this and other issues requiring thoughtful solutions in an environment where I am among people who understand my libertarian streak. The free state will have a populace with more energy and resources available to tackle the toughies. I expect innovation and pilot programs and a "what can we do to address this" attitude rather than the current "they should do something" one that currently exists.

Cathleen in SC
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MajesticLeo

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2003, 08:30:43 am »

While child abuse is a very real problem, the current solution has become a self-perpetuating monstor which can be used to exact vengence on your neighbor just by annonymously reporting them with such garbage as "they practice witchcraft so you must protect their children" (which I have seen happen).  

In order, as Jason suggests, for the "government" to take the parents to court there needs to be an official entity within the government to do so.  I seem to recall there are "child advocacy" positions in some places.  Replacing so-called "Child Protective Services" with child advocacy "agents" who sole function would be to initiate court action and act on behalf of the child might be a solution.  They would have no authority to remove children from the home, although the sheriff or local law enforcement agency might in an emergency, but would act "in loco parentis" in court proceedings.  Their salaries or funding must NOT be tied to the number of cases they initiate either since this is one source of abuse in the current system.  There does need to be a specific source where complaints about abuse can be made and frivilous complaints must be punished to prevent abuse of the system.  This doesn't have to be a "Department of Government", just a contact point, perhaps it could be handled as pro-bono work by law firms.
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michLinoregon

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2003, 04:59:55 pm »

Thanks cathleen and leo,

I appreciate your time and thoughts on this issue. I have found this to be a subject I am particularly ruminating on, only because of the thought of systematically downsizing gov't programs within a state. This being a gov't program and being such a good example of gov't gone awry (sp?)(for just the reasons Leo stated) I have to ask how such things might be taken care of without it. I would love to know what it's like to raise a child without fear of losing her because I'm an atheist. I have to hide that fact now, for the most part. I have been accused of harming my child by not bringing her up in a particular faith or any faith at all. She's smart and logical and listens to reason and offers counterarguments when she wants something I tell her she can't have. Not physical harm mind you, just spiritual harm or moral harm. She seems fine to me though.
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BobW

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2003, 04:23:07 am »

Hi Michelle,

I ran across the web site that's probably a good entry into the bureaucratic nightmare regarding children and families.

Check out the  USG's:

http://www.acf.dhhs.gov

Dr Wade Horn holds some political position at this organization.  

Go through the policy/planning section and you'll realize how the little house on the prarie now requires Washington, DC guidance.

BobW

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michLinoregon

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2003, 11:08:50 am »

Thanks Bob,

Will check that out right now!

Michelle
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SandyPrice

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2003, 01:36:27 pm »

I guess I don't understand what kind of abuse you are talking about.  

Not everyone raises their kids in the same way.  If we see bruises that are gotten from a beating, I believe we should say some thing to the parents that we are aware of the fear of abuse.  Hopefully we will be teaching our children in cluster homes where many of us can keep an eye on the kids.  

I'm always worried about kids beating and abusing each other and their pets.  If we act like adults we should be able to control this kind of behavior.  

If you are talking about sex abuse then we are required to go to the authorities reporting our questions.  As long as we don't involved the federal authorities but keep the complaints local why would this be a problem?

We will be mingling with established communities and it would be to our credit to blend in and check out the good things and the bad before we make any changes.  I absolutely believe we should establish home schools and think about doing them in clusters where the kids can make friends among the other FSP and locals too.
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Reaper

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2003, 10:29:29 am »

The problem (well, ok, the biggest one) with the current "Child Protection" scheme is that absolutely none, zero evidence of any crime is required for a child's whole world (and a parents) to be destroyed.

Child abuse should be a crime, and it should be treated as such including the rules of evidence, innocent until proven guilty, etc.
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michLinoregon

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2003, 10:45:33 am »

Yes Reaper this much is evident. But how do we enforce such laws without becoming intrusive and using scare tactics to break up families and convict possibly innocent adults without due process? This is my conundrum. The current system, in my opinion, started out probably meaning to stand up for children that can't speak for themselves when violence happens to them. But what it's become is what you described. The advocacy system would be the best in cases where abuse is evident. But sexual abuse isn't always that evident and sometimes children are so scared to report it that it may never come to light. This much is true, anyone who commits an act of force upon a child without due provocation (i.e. self defense) should be punnished as if he'd committed assault against an adult. But the way it is now, the agencies of child welfare sometimes create the cases so that they can legitimize budget increases and as a result their own incomes.

Government isn't always evil, and in this case I think they were trying to do good. But as with our government in the past and now especially they have the attitude of "in for a penny in for a pound." Once we gave this kind of agency a small foot hold to police the families of America, for abuse, they have tended to do so with extreme prejudice!  ;D

I will read more on this and think much about this. Thanks for your imput Reaper.

Respectfully,
Michelle
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Children in a free state
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2003, 11:11:16 am »

Wherever our discussion goes keep in mind the rules:
1) No government program ever dod what was intended to do
2) If there are any questions look at rule number 1)
Government - means federal or state or city or even the group of residents in part of the city
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