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Author Topic: A place for people like me?  (Read 20282 times)

WendellBerry

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2009, 09:15:59 pm »

I've got 1200+ posts here...been a member since 2004 and in NH since '96.

You've got 150+

If you've actually got the idea that playing that card means something, out of fairness, you should probably also diclose that... ... eh, 90% of those posts are about a single topic.

left-libertarianism and a critique of privilege...
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Jeff LaGrange

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #91 on: October 06, 2009, 09:19:33 pm »

This isn't a debate it is foreplay.  And I'm gonna watch 'cause I'm a perverse and a voyer.

Isn't it "voyeur"?

Geez people around here are just dumb.

You could have got me on grammer with "a pervert" instead of a perverse, but you try and hammer me for mistyping and leaving out the letter U. Who is the dumb one here?
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"No nation however powerful, any more than an individual, can be unjust with impunity.  Sooner or later, public opinion, an instrument merely moral in the beginning, will find occasion physically to inflict its sentences on the unjust... The lesson is useful to the weak as well as the strong." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1804.

"It is the trade of lawyers to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour." -  Thomas Jefferson

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Thomas Jefferson

madness!

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2009, 09:46:48 pm »

intercourse is me yelling at my computer.
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Jeff LaGrange

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #93 on: October 06, 2009, 09:49:01 pm »

intercourse is me yelling at my computer.
Is your computer wearing clothes? mmmm
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"No nation however powerful, any more than an individual, can be unjust with impunity.  Sooner or later, public opinion, an instrument merely moral in the beginning, will find occasion physically to inflict its sentences on the unjust... The lesson is useful to the weak as well as the strong." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1804.

"It is the trade of lawyers to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour." -  Thomas Jefferson

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Thomas Jefferson

madness!

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2009, 09:51:23 pm »

thats really not my cup of tea.
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Dreepa

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #95 on: October 06, 2009, 10:55:57 pm »

I love how some commie (yup I said it.. he doesn't want denis to make ANY money) posts here.. is welcome and then.....it is turned into another debate topic on Georgie ism.   ::)

Madness and poorcollegekid.....his posts are lots and lot and lots and lots of georgie ism.  But he is a nice guy in person.
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Moebius Tripp

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #96 on: October 07, 2009, 01:25:08 am »

"Its a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word."  Sam Clemens.

"Only nit-picky twits knock others for not using the same grammar/spelling as themselves."  Matt Coates (me)

especially when the the intent and meaning is clear to the nit-picker.

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Statism is the opiate of the masses

John Edward Mercier

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2009, 01:51:27 am »

The problem is that when stored-labor is put to use... it is no longer 'stored'. Thus it derives value based on the productivity increase measured against the lack of its presence.

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Bazil

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2009, 11:23:49 pm »

really?! they are?! thanks from telling me! i must be on the wrong board!

I'd like to point out an spectrum I made out which defines pretty well where political ideologies land. You notice that Socialist Libertarians and Republicans do indeed land on the other side of the spectrum.
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"If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!"- The government | "Politicians are like diapers, they need to be changed often, and for the same reasons!" -  a friend

madness!

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2009, 12:05:58 am »

spiffy. i dont think democrats are thar close to totalitarianism though...
I think it goes....
anarcho-socailism                            high freedom                              Libertarian


                                                                    Republican

Hight equality               democrat                                                  Low equality





Communist                                       Low freedom                        Fascist

rough, and you technically communism should be on a curve toward lower freedom and lower equality.
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madness!

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2009, 12:18:25 am »

actually now i feel like a jackass. there are a 1001 ways to skin a cat. i guess its just the way i learned it so i figured it must be right.

and i kinda closed my eyes and threw darts for democrat/republican.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:20:34 am by madness! »
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TEBON

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2009, 01:05:30 am »

I like that chart. 
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time4liberty

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2009, 01:57:50 am »

Quote from: ttie
I am somewhat concerned on this point: Do you disbelieve in property rights, and if so, would you consider it morally acceptable to take a person's legitimately acquired property -- by which I mean something they have produced themselves or acquired by willing, voluntary trade -- by force?
I believe that people have a right to the product of their labor, which is why I oppose the idea of individuals receiving an income through profits, loans, investments, and rent, as these individuals are not laboring. I also argue for conditional titles to land and capital, whose private ownership is legitimate only so long as it remains in use or occupation. Thus, from my standpoint, absentee ownership is illegitimate, and workers should collectively own the capital they work with.

Quote from: Anton Lee
I believe, as do many others, that I own myself.  If I am my own property then the things I acquire with my sweat and labor are also extensions of my life and I can do as I please with them and defend them.
I agree completely, which is precisely why I oppose capitalism; the operatives in a factory or a farm create, by their labor and skill, all that is produced. Yet, instead of it belonging to them, the law gives them only their stipulated hire, and transfers what is produced to someone who has merely supplied the capital, almost always without contributing to the labor itself. Capitalism allows the buyers of labor (capitalists) to appropriate the product of other people's labor (wage workers) and denies workers the right to the fruit of their labor. Yet people's right to the fruits of their labor has always been the natural basis for private property appropriation. Thus capitalist production, far from being founded on private property, in fact denies the natural basis for private property appropriation.

Quote from: JasonPSorens
Some self-described left-libertarians think that all property is theft & that it is acceptable to use violence to socialize the means of production in an "anarchist" society.
That's a straw man. Although I agree that property is theft, I don't like using the phrase, as it tends to alienate people who are unfamiliar with Proudhon and what he meant when he coined the phrase. Secondly, the occupation and use basis for libertarian socialist property rights in no way necessitates violence.

Quote from: aliendroid
There is no such thing as a socialist libertarian.
I beg to differ.

Quote from: aliendroid
Socialism is considered to be a crime by libertarians because it involves taking money from some people and giving to others, which certainly is not government leaving people alone.
You're describing state administered redistribution, yes? Socialism doesn't, in and of itself, necessitate what you're describing.

Quote from: ttie
There is no such thing as left or right libertarian IMO. Leftists believe in personal liberty, and economic tyranny, while rightists believe in economic liberty, and personal tyranny. Libertarians believe in both personal and economic liberty.
I think you're oversimplifying the political spectrum.


Tools are not free. I may work hard to produce a tool, so that someone else can use that tool to become more productive. Thus, that other person may use my tool, and we may spit the proceeds. The workers you describe have not themselves produced all of those goods, because they did not produce the farm they are using to be productive, which also required a good deal of labor.

If a person creates something, they own it, and can do whatever they want with it. They have no obligation to personally use it in order to continue to own it -- they can rent it out to someone else that can put it to better use. This is absolutely legitimate. It is silly to imagine that if someone creates a good or service, they must personally utilize it all the time in order for it to be theirs.

What keeps people in poverty is not property ownership, but government manipulation/regulation/taxation, etc.

If you feel you have the right to go steal someone's property that they have legitimately acquired just because they're not currently using it, or they've rented it out, then I do think your views do not mesh with liberty. If you can respect people's property, but work to create worker owned alternative businesses, and convince people to voluntarily choose more commune-like solutions, then I think you would fit in very well.
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WendellBerry

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2009, 06:16:15 am »

Quote
If a person creates something, they own it, and can do whatever they want with it.

Land pre-exist human labor...
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Bazil

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2009, 06:42:16 am »

spiffy. i dont think democrats are thar close to totalitarianism though...
I think it goes....
anarcho-socailism                            high freedom                              Libertarian


                                                                    Republican

Hight equality               democrat                                                  Low equality





Communist                                       Low freedom                        Fascist

rough, and you technically communism should be on a curve toward lower freedom and lower equality.

It all depends on what you use to define your spectrum.  I used Individualism and regulationism.  The names are in the general areas (8ths) with which the groups land.  For the most part the groups depicted there actually land nearer to the middle of the chart. I put groups like Totalitarianism and Libertarianism at the extreme corners to show that the closer you get to the corner the more like that you are
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"If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!"- The government | "Politicians are like diapers, they need to be changed often, and for the same reasons!" -  a friend
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