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Author Topic: A place for people like me?  (Read 18814 times)

time4liberty

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #105 on: October 08, 2009, 04:24:49 pm »

Quote
If a person creates something, they own it, and can do whatever they want with it.

Land pre-exist human labor...

All things man creates are made from something that preexisted the labor. But once man mixes his labor with nature, and improves it, that part of nature becomes his property. If I make a sculpture out of clay, it is mine, and it would be wrong for you to steal it, despite the fact that the clay pre-existed my labor.

Now, the question of what constitutes improvement, or legitimate ownership, is one worth of discussion, but if something is owned, it is owned. You cannot change your mind about its ownership because you don't like what the owner has chosen to do with the property.
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WendellBerry

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #106 on: October 08, 2009, 04:45:31 pm »

Quote
If a person creates something, they own it, and can do whatever they want with it.

Land pre-exist human labor...

All things man creates are made from something that preexisted the labor. But once man mixes his labor with nature, and improves it, that part of nature becomes his property. If I make a sculpture out of clay, it is mine, and it would be wrong for you to steal it, despite the fact that the clay pre-existed my labor.

Now, the question of what constitutes improvement, or legitimate ownership, is one worth of discussion, but if something is owned, it is owned. You cannot change your mind about its ownership because you don't like what the owner has chosen to do with the property.

How about a 3D location in space - with one dimension being the dry surface of the earth?

How about if the "thing" is abandoned?
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time4liberty

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #107 on: October 08, 2009, 04:59:29 pm »

Quote
If a person creates something, they own it, and can do whatever they want with it.

Land pre-exist human labor...

All things man creates are made from something that preexisted the labor. But once man mixes his labor with nature, and improves it, that part of nature becomes his property. If I make a sculpture out of clay, it is mine, and it would be wrong for you to steal it, despite the fact that the clay pre-existed my labor.

Now, the question of what constitutes improvement, or legitimate ownership, is one worth of discussion, but if something is owned, it is owned. You cannot change your mind about its ownership because you don't like what the owner has chosen to do with the property.

How about a 3D location in space - with one dimension being the dry surface of the earth?

How about if the "thing" is abandoned?

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the 3D location. I think if a new continent is discovered, for example, and a person homesteads a reasonably sized piece of land on that continent, they could also be said to own some airspace above that land. I don't have a right to fly a helicopter 10 feet above a person's house without their permission.

If a property has an owner, but that owner is not using the property, to have the right to use that property, one would still need to get permission from the owner.

That said, I don't think laws should be enforced without plaintiffs. So, if you're quite sure they're not interested in the property, you're not damaging the property, and you're willing to risk losing access to the property if the owner objects, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. For example, if there is an apparently abandoned lot next to you, I don't have a problem with you planting a small garden on it -- but you have to recognize that if the owner comes back you may loose it. Also, if you damage their property, you're going to be expected to make restitution.
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rossby

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2009, 05:46:33 pm »

Quote
If a person creates something, they own it, and can do whatever they want with it.

Land pre-exist human labor...

All things man creates are made from something that preexisted the labor. But once man mixes his labor with nature, and improves it, that part of nature becomes his property. If I make a sculpture out of clay, it is mine, and it would be wrong for you to steal it, despite the fact that the clay pre-existed my labor.

If you continue down this line of reasoning (as with land), you reach a silly situation. The sculpture is yours. The clay is not. By making the sculpture, you are depriving everyone else of the clay's use. Pay me taxes for owning the sculpture, or I will hurt you.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 05:52:03 pm by B.D. Ross »
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WendellBerry

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #109 on: October 08, 2009, 06:59:10 pm »

Quote
If a person creates something, they own it, and can do whatever they want with it.

Land pre-exist human labor...

All things man creates are made from something that preexisted the labor. But once man mixes his labor with nature, and improves it, that part of nature becomes his property. If I make a sculpture out of clay, it is mine, and it would be wrong for you to steal it, despite the fact that the clay pre-existed my labor.

If you continue down this line of reasoning (as with land), you reach a silly situation. The sculpture is yours. The clay is not. By making the sculpture, you are depriving everyone else of the clay's use. Pay me taxes for owning the sculpture, or I will hurt you.

Does the clay have any economic value in situ prior to the application of labor?
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rossby

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2009, 07:01:11 pm »

Quote
If a person creates something, they own it, and can do whatever they want with it.

Land pre-exist human labor...

All things man creates are made from something that preexisted the labor. But once man mixes his labor with nature, and improves it, that part of nature becomes his property. If I make a sculpture out of clay, it is mine, and it would be wrong for you to steal it, despite the fact that the clay pre-existed my labor.

If you continue down this line of reasoning (as with land), you reach a silly situation. The sculpture is yours. The clay is not. By making the sculpture, you are depriving everyone else of the clay's use. Pay me taxes for owning the sculpture, or I will hurt you.

Does the clay have any economic value in situ prior to the application of labor?

Loamy soil is rather valuable.
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Keyser Soce

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #111 on: October 09, 2009, 01:58:19 pm »

Have people never heard of non-state socialism?

http://c4ss.org/content/670/comment-page-1#comment-553
You mean actually working. NO.

I have.


I haven't. I know collectivism through voluntary cooperatives works well, but actual socialism... I've never seen work.

Not sure about the distinction you're trying to make between voluntary cooperatives and non-state socialism but I'm pretty sure we're agreeing.
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"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man; brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain

Keyser Soce

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #112 on: October 09, 2009, 02:03:46 pm »

the inherent inefficiencies of a socialist system   

I have had some personal experience with hippie inefficiencies. Not fun.
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"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man; brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
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