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Author Topic: A place for people like me?  (Read 19195 times)

Vic_Fox

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A place for people like me?
« on: September 22, 2009, 05:28:24 pm »

Dear Free State Project,

I have a few questions in regards to your movement:

Is the FSP capitalist, or is that an oversimplification?

Are libertarian socialists encouraged to participate in the FSP?

Would your hypothetical "free state" be preferable for libertarian socialists like me (as opposed to, say, other states)?

Best wishes,
Vic Fox
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madness!

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 05:36:07 pm »

American Libertarian an antonym of Libertarian socialism. But the best part about a Anarcho-Capitalist Society is that you can go off and start a commune with like minded people in a sort of Socialist Utopia without the government breathing down your neck. So if you want to make the American Federal Government Socialist or force socialism on the rest of us who dont agree with you and use the threat of force to steal peoples money, then no. I dont think the FSP is for you. But if you want to practice Socialism with a willing group of people free of the government, then yes, FSP is for you. Though in my experience i have yet to find someone who is the latter...
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rossby

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 06:42:38 pm »

Is the FSP capitalist, or is that an oversimplification?

The scope of participation in the Free State Project is contained in the Statement of Intent:

Quote
I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.

The statement of intent does not explicitly state who can and cannot own capital property. But it personally strikes me as contradictory that a person could be forbidden from owning capital property or that such property might be confiscated by others for productive use.

Are libertarian socialists encouraged to participate in the FSP?

Everyone determines their own level of involvement.


Would your hypothetical "free state" be preferable for libertarian socialists like me (as opposed to, say, other states)?

Only you can answer which state you find preferable.
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lobstah

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 06:43:43 pm »

as long as the "socialism" is voluntary, i for one am all for it!
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Dreepa

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 06:50:43 pm »

welcome Vic.

There are many 'left libertarians' in the FSP and in NH.

I agree with Lobstah and BDRoss...
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Moebius Tripp

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 12:19:32 am »

I like zero-agression and defense.  I'm also interested in learning more about how/if Mondragon's paradigm would work iin a liberty framework.
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 01:04:50 am »

"Capitalism is what happens when governments leave things alone." --Ludwig von Mises

Live and let live.
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"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

MK

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2009, 08:28:39 pm »

If you want more freedom/liberty versus less, then you are welcome,all day and all night.
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Vic_Fox

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2009, 10:09:12 pm »

Quote from: madness!
American Libertarian an antonym of Libertarian socialism.
I am aware of this. Although, we were the first to use the term in the political sense, and we kind of want it back. :P

Quote from: madness!
But the best part about a Anarcho-Capitalist Society is that you can go off and start a commune with like minded people in a sort of Socialist Utopia without the government breathing down your neck.
That was sort of my line of thinking. Or rather, without the assistance of the state, proprietary enterprise would have a tougher time muscling out cooperatives and worker-managed enterprise. People who desire freedom should naturally gravitate toward the latter institutions if they truly desire emancipation in all aspects of life.

Quote from: madness!
So if you want to make the American Federal Government Socialist or force socialism on the rest of us who dont agree with you and use the threat of force to steal peoples money, then no. I dont think the FSP is for you. But if you want to practice Socialism with a willing group of people free of the government, then yes, FSP is for you. Though in my experience i have yet to find someone who is the latter...
I suppose that makes me the first then.

Quote from: B.D. Ross
Quote from: Vic_Fox
Is the FSP capitalist, or is that an oversimplification?

The scope of participation in the Free State Project is contained in the Statement of Intent:

Quote
I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.

The statement of intent does not explicitly state who can and cannot own capital property. But it personally strikes me as contradictory that a person could be forbidden from owning capital property or that such property might be confiscated by others for productive use.
It's the vast difference between the capitalist versus the libertarian socialist view of property rights that concerns me, and that seems to be what your personal concern revolves around.

Quote from: lobstah
as long as the "socialism" is voluntary, i for one am all for it!
I wouldn't have it any other way. (though I'm inclined to inquire as to why you chose to put socialism in quotes)

Quote from: maxxoccupancy
"Capitalism is what happens when governments leave things alone." --Ludwig von Mises
I disagree. Without the government, the last thing protecting capitalism is the ignorance of its victims.
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time4liberty

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2009, 03:05:01 am »

Quote from: madness!
American Libertarian an antonym of Libertarian socialism.
I am aware of this. Although, we were the first to use the term in the political sense, and we kind of want it back. :P

Quote from: madness!
But the best part about a Anarcho-Capitalist Society is that you can go off and start a commune with like minded people in a sort of Socialist Utopia without the government breathing down your neck.
That was sort of my line of thinking. Or rather, without the assistance of the state, proprietary enterprise would have a tougher time muscling out cooperatives and worker-managed enterprise. People who desire freedom should naturally gravitate toward the latter institutions if they truly desire emancipation in all aspects of life.

Quote from: madness!
So if you want to make the American Federal Government Socialist or force socialism on the rest of us who dont agree with you and use the threat of force to steal peoples money, then no. I dont think the FSP is for you. But if you want to practice Socialism with a willing group of people free of the government, then yes, FSP is for you. Though in my experience i have yet to find someone who is the latter...
I suppose that makes me the first then.

Quote from: B.D. Ross
Quote from: Vic_Fox
Is the FSP capitalist, or is that an oversimplification?

The scope of participation in the Free State Project is contained in the Statement of Intent:

Quote
I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.

The statement of intent does not explicitly state who can and cannot own capital property. But it personally strikes me as contradictory that a person could be forbidden from owning capital property or that such property might be confiscated by others for productive use.
It's the vast difference between the capitalist versus the libertarian socialist view of property rights that concerns me, and that seems to be what your personal concern revolves around.

Quote from: lobstah
as long as the "socialism" is voluntary, i for one am all for it!
I wouldn't have it any other way. (though I'm inclined to inquire as to why you chose to put socialism in quotes)

Quote from: maxxoccupancy
"Capitalism is what happens when governments leave things alone." --Ludwig von Mises
I disagree. Without the government, the last thing protecting capitalism is the ignorance of its victims.

If your intent is to start a voluntary commune, cooperative, or worker managed business, which people can choose to join or leave, then I absolutely support you in your effort, and think you would definitely fit in.

In fact, I think all of these are a cool ideas, and might consider joining one for a period of time at some point. It's coercion, and the threat of aggressive violence that I oppose.

I am somewhat concerned on this point: Do you disbelieve in property rights, and if so, would you consider it morally acceptable to take a person's legitimately acquired property -- by which I mean something they have produced themselves or acquired by willing, voluntary trade -- by force?

I strongly agree that the government works in favor of the big corporatists, and routinely muscles out alternative organizations. Burdensome regulations custom made to eliminate competition and raise barriers to entry are a favorite tool.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 03:11:54 am by ttie »
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2009, 03:11:29 am »

What if the property was initially acquired by force, then voluntarily traded?
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time4liberty

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 03:13:07 am »

What if the property was initially acquired by force, then voluntarily traded?


I would say the person or people who initially used the force is/are on the hook for compensation to the victim, no matter how much the good is traded afterwards. Knowingly acquiring stolen property, however, while one is able to but chooses not to help effect justice, is absolutely unacceptable, and I might be convinced counts as assistance in the original crime.

The issue of receiving stolen property, which I think your question goes to, is not cut and dried, and is worth discussing. I do think knowledge and capability to effect justice are key factors in this issue.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 03:22:16 am by ttie »
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TEBON

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2009, 05:27:23 am »

come here and bring your friends.  I wouldn't suggest going into the lions den unless you plan to get mauled.  Much like I wouldn't try and change people's minds about property.  I believe, as do many others, that I own myself.  If I am my own property then the things I acquire with my sweat and labor are also extensions of my life and I can do as I please with them and defend them.

But I'd be that sort of "capitalist" that would be quite friendly to Libertarian Socialists who use voluntary means to achieve their goals as a group.  Welcome to the FSP forum!
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WendellBerry

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 11:56:26 am »

welcome Vic.

There are many 'left libertarians' in the FSP and in NH.

I agree with Lobstah and BDRoss...

But the SOI as it relates to the term "property" is too broadly construed for many "left libertarians"...

Specifically, it needs to differentiate between law-based property and labor-based property plus possibly rules around occupancy and use.
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rossby

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Re: A place for people like me?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 12:16:20 pm »

Specifically, it needs to differentiate between law-based property and labor-based property plus possibly rules around occupancy and use.

Where it says that "the maximum role of government is the protection of life", should we clarify that we don't mean slime mold?
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