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Author Topic: Conservatives and Libertarians.  (Read 6268 times)

Denis Goddard

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 12:31:11 pm »

I wouldn't read too much into the Dems v GOP issue. The party lines often change in local politics, and from my perspective they're both anti-freedom anyway.
^This

Uhm NH voted for Dems in 2006 and 2008 BECAUSE of the Iraq war.
Yep.
Note that whether the war was the right or the wrong thing to do is not the point for this thread; if the question is, "Why did the (D) party sweep NH in i '06 and '08?" then the answer is "The large majority of the UNDECLARED, INDEPENDENT NH voters opposed the wars, and threw out the (R) party as a result"

Bazil

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2009, 01:10:24 pm »


Uhm NH voted for Dems in 2006 and 2008 BECAUSE of the Iraq war.  It is not about 'islamofacism'.. if it was we would invade Saudi Arabia.


I personally don't understand this, the Dems generally want to expand government and social programs.  Republicans, although they don't usually repeal stuff when enacted, generally don't do this. I'd rather put up with an unjust war away from home than have the government here stripping away my freedoms.  Besides the fact that the Dems voted for the war too.



libertarians aren't obsessed with MJ... they just think that they should be able own their own bodies.  I think that the 'drug war' is worse than the drugs.

So true, look at prohibition for example.  A huge amount of crime popped up because of it.  The thing of it is that if they made drugs legal people would probably do less of it because they wouldn't have thought it was "cool" in their rebellious days.  If drugs were legal in the US (the biggest consumer) most of the organized crime groups around the world would fall apart because they would have almost no income.

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K. Darien Freeheart

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2009, 03:17:07 pm »

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If the FSP is moving to NH, how come NH keeps voting Democrats into office?

For the same reason most of the other states do as well. There are a lot of statists, and of the statists, the majority of them prefer to vote for the Democratic candidates.

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Does freedom mean allowing abominations of gay marriage and abortion?

In my view, yes. Of course, I think marriage should be a private thing, completely removed from the government entirely. And when private people choose to enter into a private marriage, it should be "tolerated", in the same way I "tolerate" the people who paint their cars red. I think it's ugly, I dislike it, and I know I have absolutely ZERO say in it, since it's not mine.

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Do Libertarians hate the Constitution?

I do. It permitted slavery. It permits taxation. It permits government to restrict travel. At it's very core, it assumes that it is ethical for one group of men and women to control (the very root of the word "govern" means "to limit") another group. The Constitution sanctions murder of people who commit "treason" which can be defined as acting ethically when the FedGov demands you act unethically.

I like the ideas that motivated the drafting of the Constitution. People should be free to choose their own destiny, own property, conduct business. People shouldn't go around blowing up people in the name of a nation, state or municipality. People should be free to defend themselves. I just think the Constitution itself shat all over these rights as they proceeded to establish a government.

As Lysander Spooner said, either the Constitution SANCTIONS the government of today, or it is POWERLESS to prevent it.

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Why did Libertarians stand against the Iraq War  - a war to stand up to the Islamo-facists?

Because I think murdering people because they happen to be born in a plot of land, controlled and named by a government, is sick, disgusting and unethical. Furthermore, the very fact that it's about Islamo ANYTHING is a damn good reason for me to oppose it. I reject collectivism and I think bigotry is intolerable.

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Why are Libertarians so obsessed with legalizing marijuana?

I'm not. I'm obsessed with the idea that it's evil to but people in cages who have HARMED NOBODY. Cannabis is only one part, but I'd like to see peaceful meth users and sellers, peaceful heroin users, peaceful LSD users, peaceful salvia users, peaceful oregano users, peaceful thyme users and peaceful caffeine users all left to live their lives.

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Are Libertarians pro-criminal or into coddling criminals?

That depends. You seem to find murder-called-war to be okay, and you even wonder why I'd oppose locking people in cages for a plant. If you think "drugs" make a person a criminal, then yes, I am. I believe "crime" REQUIRES a person who can demonstrate reasonable levels of harm. If I'm into coddling people who harm others, no. But I'll add that when they do harm others, they're debt isn't to me, but the people they've harmed. If someone commits a crime, but attempt to recompense and amend the harm they've done, I'm okay with "coddling" them such as letting them work for me, or be my friends. Of course, I evaluate ALL people based on the things they've done, so I might be slightly more cautious, but that's true of liars as well, and that's not criminal.

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Do most Libertarians believe in the obsolete and erroneous theory of evolution as an explanation of the creation of llife?

I believe it's obvious that evolution happens. Anybody who's ever said "He has his father's eyes" or "his mother's chin" proves that evolution happens since inheretance is the mechanism by which it happens. As to how life happened,  I don't know and don't care. I wasn't there, and it doesn't much impact that fact that I'm alive here. It's possible that the entire universe is nothing but the dream of some fish in a fishbowl, but since I'm alive, I feel alive, and there's nothing I can do about it anyway, I ignore it.

To touch the side issues, I think parents should be free to teach their kids whatever non-sense they want - God, No God, Three Gods, The Universe Is The Dream Of A Fish, Flying Spaghetti Monster Farts Made Us... whatever. I also believe that the only ethical stance a libertarian can take on education is that the government must get out of it ENTIRELY. I'm not interested in forcing my opinion on anyone, and I oppose the idea that anyone should force theirs on me.

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Do Libertarians vote for Republicans over Democrats or the other way around?

I voted for Ron Paul in the primaries, the first time I'd ever voted for a Republican. I voted for FREETALKLIVE.COM as a write-in during the actual Presidental election. I think electoral politics is about control freaks, regardless of the party, and I don't endorse any control freaks.

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Do some Libertarians harbor some love for Obama?

A teensy, tiny bit. If he'd stop using force to control people, I'd be okay with him. I suppose the same is true of George Bush too, or Stalin and everyone else who gained a crappy reputation because the force others to bend to their will. I will say that there's ONE thing I like about Obama. He gave me an AWESOME quote, on VIDEO, about how nation-states have a monopoly on the use of violence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpsBM1rmx-M

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Is Libertarianism really a subset of Conservatism?

In the way people today use "conservative", no. In the historical sense, there's really very little difference between (paleo) conservatives, classical liberals and libertarians.

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Will this New Hampshire be one Nation under God or one Nation under Ron Paul?

Neither. I'm working towards a New Hampshire that's referred to as a geographical area, under no government, where you're under whatever God you choose. Ron Paul is welcome to come if he likes.
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sj

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2009, 07:18:44 pm »

I'm conservative and these are some things I'm mulling around in my head. 

I'm a conservative and happy to discuss it with you.  :)

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If the FSP is moving to NH, how come NH keeps voting Democrats into office?

NH isn't immune from national trends.  2006 and 2008 were very bad years for Republicans because the GOP brand was pretty much toast.  It deserves to be.  However, even with Obama's coattails, Republicans still picked up seats in the NH legislature in 2008 (not enough to make up for their huge losses in 2006 due to straight ticket voting).  I am 70% sure the GOP will re-take the NH House in 2010.  FYI, NH is historically Republican.  2006 was the first time the Dems controlled the legislature in NH since the 1920's.

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Does freedom mean allowing abominations of gay marriage and abortion?
 

No.

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Do Libertarians hate the Constitution?
 

No.

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Why did Libertarians stand against the Iraq War  - a war to stand up to the Islamo-facists?

I've got fascists in my own back yard to deal with.  I don't need to give them more power over my life so they can fight fascists on the other side of the world.

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Democrat opposition is understandable - they love Dictators.


Republicans seemed pretty in love with a super-powerful executive when the president had an R next to his name. 

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Why are Libertarians so obsessed with legalizing marijuana?  Is marijuana the most important thing a Libertarian thinks about?

It's not the most important thing to me, but it is to some people. 

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Are Libertarians pro-criminal or into coddling criminals?

I'm into punishing people who harm others and not punishing those who do not.  For instance, the Founding Fathers were, by definition, criminals and I wouldn't have supported punishing them.  Would you?

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Do most Libertarians believe in the obsolete and erroneous theory of evolution as an explanation of the creation of llife?

I don't know.  I know most libertarians believe that parents should be able to teach their own children what they believe.

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Do Libertarians vote for Republicans over Democrats or the other way around?

It varies dramatically.  Historically, a large minority of libertarians voted Republican, but that has shifted dramatically after the debacle of the Bush years.  Now, libertarians are pretty much politically homeless.

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Do some Libertarians harbor some love for Obama?
 

I know I sure don't.

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Is Libertarianism really a subset of Conservatism?
 

Labels are tough.  I think libertarian politics is the American tradition - so in that way I would say yes.

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Will this New Hampshire be one Nation under God or one Nation under Ron Paul?

I've placed my life under God, but don't want the state to do it for me.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 07:02:49 pm by sj »
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time4liberty

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2009, 04:48:28 pm »

I'm conservative and these are some things I'm mulling around in my head. 


If the FSP is moving to NH, how come NH keeps voting Democrats into office?

There aren't THAT many fsp movers yet. ;)

Does freedom mean allowing abominations of gay marriage and abortion?

People disagree on these issues. I consider abortion after the baby has brain waves and a heartbeat murder. I don't think the government should be in charge of marriage at all -- they should butt completely out.

  Do Libertarians hate the Constitution?

I consider the constitution far better than most founding documents, or lack therof, through history -- at least it recognized some rights. In general, our break from the British was a great step forward for liberty. However, I also recognize that the constitution was still fundamentally immoral. It allowed slavery, and taxation, to cite two examples. We've recified the former mistake, but not yet the latter.

Why did Libertarians stand against the Iraq War  - a war to stand up to the Islamo-facists?

I don't support sending troops around the world to blow people up and nationbuild. Look up hegemony, it's what the U.S. has become, and It's time the government stopped messing around in the internal affairs of other nations. That was the advice of the founders, and it was good advice -- stay out of entangling alliances.

If you want to support and finance a force to go topple dictators, you're free to do so. If the dictator is especially vicious, I may even join you. You don't have a right to force your neighbors to pay for it, however.


Democrat opposition is understandable - they love Dictators.

Right, all republicans are good, and Democrats are pure evil. ::)

Why are Libertarians so obsessed with legalizing marijuana?  Is marijuana the most important thing a Libertarian thinks about?

I've never used it, but I support it's legalization for a simple reason: I do not own other people, so I have no right to play mommy to them. What they do, as long as they do not harm others, is their own business. It's why I oppose all victimless "crimes".

Are Libertarians pro-criminal or into coddling criminals?

It depends -- I am absolutely against all real crime. Theives, murderers, and the like, should be made to pay the consequeces for their actions. Some "crimes" however, are B.S. -- like operating a business without a licence, or not meeting the details of a government building regulation -- or drinking unpasturized milk. I'm opposed to the government going after people for these kinds of things. People should be free to live as they choose, as long as they do not harm others.

  Do most Libertarians believe in the obsolete and erroneous theory of evolution as an explanation of the creation of llife? 

That's not really a political issue -- I don't think this issue is related to libertarianism at all.

Do Libertarians vote for Republicans over Democrats or the other way around? 

Depends. I can't stand 99% of republican or democrat politicians, but I can think of two or three republicans I support, and no democrats, so take from that what you will.

Do some Libertarians harbor some love for Obama?

Can't stand him, nor could I stand Bush. Both have increased government power and reduced economic and personal freedom.

Is Libertarianism really a subset of Conservatism?

No. Libertarians believe in freedom across the board. "Conservatives" traditionally believe in more economic freedom, while "Progressives" believe in more personal freedom. These days, however, republicans have been increasing spending as fast as democrats, and democrats have been just as hawkish and anti-personal liberty as Bush was. These days, R and D are just labels. There's not a dime's worth of difference between them, IMO. They both consistantly increase the size and power of government when they take office.

I think people should be completely free, as long as they don't harm others.

Will this New Hampshire be one Nation under God or one Nation under Ron Paul?

Well, God's over all no matter what we do, it's pretty much a non-statement, and no one here is looking to make RP or anyone else dictator.

How about one land where people are truly free? That seems like a good organizing principle to me :).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 04:56:41 pm by ttie »
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SuperPatriot

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2009, 09:53:56 pm »

I'm conservative and these are some things I'm mulling around in my head. 


If the FSP is moving to NH, how come NH keeps voting Democrats into office? Does freedom mean allowing abominations of gay marriage and abortion?  Do Libertarians hate the Constitution?  Why did Libertarians stand against the Iraq War  - a war to stand up to the Islamo-facists? Democrat opposition is understandable - they love Dictators. Why are Libertarians so obsessed with legalizing marijuana?  Is marijuana the most important thing a Libertarian thinks about?  Are Libertarians pro-criminal or into coddling criminals?  Do most Libertarians believe in the obsolete and erroneous theory of evolution as an explanation of the creation of llife?  Do Libertarians vote for Republicans over Democrats or the other way around?  Do some Libertarians harbor some love for Obama?  Is Libertarianism really a subset of Conservatism?  Will this New Hampshire be one Nation under God or one Nation under Ron Paul?
I always believed that Libertarian and conservative were closely related and I still do.  However, after coming here and also doing some research myself, I have come to understand that like there are different types of conservatives, there are different types of libertarians. 

I generally oppose conservatives that want big government, that want to run everyone's life for them (No alcohol, censorship of everything not suitable for kids, etc). 
Some libertarians seem to basically want have a "do whatever you want" philosophy, with absolutely no rules.  For example, no property rights, no intellectual property rights, if you want to go to the mall smoking crack in the nude than why not -- it's your right.   

Obviously there is a lot of variation between the two. 
Personally, I am more of a constitutionalist.  I believe in the Federal Government having a very limited role (although I believe it is important that it does have a role). I am pro life (even though the federal government should have no say on the subject-it's not in the constitution) and I am against expanding marriage to include gays or anything else that will (certainly) come up down the road (such as animals, kids, inanimate objects).  Marriage (and the family) is the cornerstone of our civilization, and the results of watering it down over the years have become VERY apparent.  I also understand that war is necessary, that you just can't wait until the enemy land in the US and then have a militia deal with them.  As for school, I believe that many libertarians and conservatives agree that government-run schools are horrible and that parents/communiies should choose what thier kids learn.

The North East is solidly blue.  Growing up there I found it shocking when I finally became politically educated/active.  I have been surprised that many people talk/act conservative or libertarian, but vote democrat.  There is often a disconnect, or sometimes it’s just the misinformation.  A lot of people aren't actually educated on the issues. While the Democratic Party does like dictators, many individual democrats don't.  I know someone that votes democrat that was upset when a referendum to lower property taxes in Maine failed.  I was like, “You vote democrat-you help put the party of higher taxes in power-how can you be upset when you have to pay more taxes?"  They just don't see their vote for democrats connected to tier higher taxes.  And when they see elected Republicans call themselves conservative act like democrats, it only makes them less likely to see any difference.  Too often Republicans’ only sound libertarian when they are running for office.  As soon as they get in office the elephant trunk disappears and the donkey ears come out.  Conservatism and Libertarianism have a lot more in common than Libertarianism and liberalism.

From what I have gathered in my short time on this forum that Free Staters (just like most movements) are made up of all kinds of people that generally call themselves libertarians.
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dalebert

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2009, 12:09:59 am »

Why are Libertarians so obsessed with legalizing marijuana?  Is marijuana the most important thing a Libertarian thinks about?

I don't think they are. At the foundation of libertarian philosophy is freedom from tyranny and they may be a bit obsessed with over a million innocent people being in jail, not to mention the taxes spent to keep those innocent people in there and the long-term damage done to their families whom are often left without a loving parent and provider.

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Do Libertarians vote for Republicans over Democrats or the other way around?

Well, if they're going to vote, I think they'd mostly vote for neither Dems nor Reps, but rather for Libertarians, but since libertarians are pretty smart people on average and generally not automatons, I suspect they mostly vote for individual candidates instead of voting for the letter next to their name.

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Will this New Hampshire be one Nation under God or one Nation under Ron Paul?

Please tell me those aren't the only two choices. That's like having to choose between Republicans and Democrats, or more aptly between invisible pink unicorns and turd sandwiches.

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Is Libertarianism really a subset of Conservatism?

Holy Hell! I sure hope not, particularly if you're an example of Conservatism.

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Do most Libertarians believe in the obsolete and erroneous theory of evolution as an explanation of the creation of llife?

I don't see how the two topics (evolution and libertarianism) are at all related and it doesn't seem like libertarianism would have much bearing on that viewpoint versus a person's scientific and/or religious views. However, if I were going to speculate and since libertarians are pretty intelligent on average, I imagine a lot of them believe in trying to find answers to the things we don't fully understand through some scientific method instead of making up answers like "It's magic!"

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Do some Libertarians harbor some love for Obama?

As a politician, I don't like him at all. However, I do often fantasize about performing oral sex on him, and I'm a man btw. Does that make you really uncomfortable? GOOD! Actually, I don't really. I just wanted to gross you out because you're a prick and a troll. You are also the king of straw-men and false dichotomies.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 09:29:27 am by dalebert »
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