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Author Topic: Conservatives and Libertarians.  (Read 6260 times)

Moving_on_up

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Conservatives and Libertarians.
« on: August 26, 2009, 08:58:20 pm »

I'm conservative and these are some things I'm mulling around in my head. 


If the FSP is moving to NH, how come NH keeps voting Democrats into office? Does freedom mean allowing abominations of gay marriage and abortion?  Do Libertarians hate the Constitution?  Why did Libertarians stand against the Iraq War  - a war to stand up to the Islamo-facists? Democrat opposition is understandable - they love Dictators. Why are Libertarians so obsessed with legalizing marijuana?  Is marijuana the most important thing a Libertarian thinks about?  Are Libertarians pro-criminal or into coddling criminals?  Do most Libertarians believe in the obsolete and erroneous theory of evolution as an explanation of the creation of llife?  Do Libertarians vote for Republicans over Democrats or the other way around?  Do some Libertarians harbor some love for Obama?  Is Libertarianism really a subset of Conservatism?  Will this New Hampshire be one Nation under God or one Nation under Ron Paul?




« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 09:00:09 pm by Moving_on_up »
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Moebius Tripp

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2009, 09:25:57 pm »

If the FSP is moving to NH, how come NH keeps voting Democrats into office?

I only have one vote, as does anyone else who chooses to vote.

Does freedom mean allowing abominations of gay marriage and abortion?

Does freedom of religion only apply to conservative Christians?  Is marriage the purview of government, at all?  Am I responsible for a child in the womb of a woman I've never had relations with?  If she has an abortion, should she be shot?  Should I have to pay for her abortion?

Do Libertarians hate the Constitution?

Do you support slavery, robbery, and genocide?

Why did Libertarians stand against the Iraq War  - a war to stand up to the Islamo-facists?

Am I allowed to murder anyone I don't agree with?

Why are Libertarians so obsessed with legalizing marijuana?  Is marijuana the most important thing a Libertarian thinks about?  Are Libertarians pro-criminal or into coddling criminals?

Is it the purview of government to tell me what I can and can't put into my body?  Is my body owned by anyone but me?

Do most Libertarians believe in the obsolete and erroneous theory of evolution as an explanation of the creation of llife?

The theory of evolution as currently discussed in academic circles is narrowed to the migration of one specie into another, and doesn't address creation, at all.

Do Libertarians vote for Republicans over Democrats or the other way around?

Most (L)ibertarians vote for Libertarian candidates.  Small "L" libertarians vote for whomever their conscience dictates, or don't vote at all.

Do some Libertarians harbor some love for Obama?

I don't hate anyone, if I can help it.  He's a better spoken, gentler smiling face on the same totalitarian system.

Is Libertarianism really a subset of Conservatism?

I believe some leftist liberals may believe so.  I don't.  I believe there is some fringe overlap with both conservatism and liberalism, but Libertarianism is a separate philosophy.

Will this New Hampshire be one Nation under God or one Nation under Ron Paul?

I hope it will be many individuals who choose not to agress against each other, collectively or separately, regardless of their basis for morality.
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Ferg

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2009, 10:05:23 pm »

I wouldn't read too much into the Dems v GOP issue. The party lines often change in local politics, and from my perspective they're both anti-freedom anyway.

Marriage is not an issue for government but, so long as it does intervene, the issue divides libertarians. Abortion also divides libertarians, since we do believe in a right to life (as the SOI states). I am pro-life, and there are others here, but I don't put much faith in the government to stop abortions.

Certainly the philosophy of the DOI and a constitutionally restrained government are desirable, at least to the minarchists. But, as is clear to see, the constitution might as well not exist as far as the federal government is concerned, because they don't pay any attention to it.

Islamo-fascists. Hmmm. As though the US didn't help Hussein get into power and then support his presence until it became inconvenient. I suggest you have a look at the nation with bases in over a 150 countries before making such characterizations.

Marijuana use has no victim. That's why laws against it are draconian and just plain ridiculous, not to mention expensive to enforce and destructive to people's lives. Plus, laws such as those foster such hypocrisies, since even our presidents have used drugs in their time, but of course they never have to face punishment.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 10:16:48 pm by Ferg »
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Ferg

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2009, 10:16:28 pm »

Libertarianism does not provide a theory of our origins, so I don't think that ought to be a concern for you. Hence, you'll find an array of views on that.

Love for Obama? Actually, at the Liberty Forum in March there was a joke on this. One of the speakers asked if there were any Obama supporters in the room. Plenty of laughter, but no hands raised.

There is plenty of crossover between paleoconservatism and libertarianism, but I think you need to be more specific about what you mean by conservatism, because it has so many connotations.

Ron Paul is one politician who has done a good job in congress, but he is only one man. The ideas which he refers to are important, not him, and you are seeing others of a similar mould come through now. Hopefully Peter Schiff and Rand Paul will make the senate in 2010.
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Bazil

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2009, 11:53:38 pm »

There are a few major kinds of libertarians.  Social (old school hippies), Anarchic (big L Libertarians), Constitutional.  The most outspoken Libertarians on here are big L Anarchists.  The "libertarians" that you see in the main stream media that often agree with conservatives are usually constitutional libertarians, or arguably Constitutionalists and not true Libertarians at all.  Here is a chart a made awhile back to give you an idea where everything lands.  Most political groups land some where near the center in reality.  The politics in most countries land somewhere in the center-top-left with the US' government landing slightly to the left the middle in the center-top.  Islamo-fascists land probably the extreme top-middle.  The most outspoken people on here probably fall in the extreme bottom-right/right-bottom.

EDIT:  go to this post for the new image.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 09:03:44 am by Bazil »
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gooddealsbooks

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2009, 11:55:44 pm »

hey don't forget the Constitution Party crowd on here ;D Well maybe I am the only one on here but hey I am here.
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slothman

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 12:31:32 am »

@Bazil
Is there another graph, or a site?
I can't read this very well.
The words are scrunched and the colors are similar.
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cathleeninnh

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2009, 07:28:34 am »

Many of us come from conservative backgrounds. I was brought up to be personally responsible and support myself. It gets frustrating when we can't live our lives without being squeezed and manipulated by the government.

Moving here is a tremendous relief. Not that government isn't encroaching here, it is. But now we have a large and growing group of like-minded folks. Any one issue may not get everyone involved, but little by little we make a difference.

Libertarians, large L and small l, strive for non-aggression. Thinking about aggression and where there is force instead of voluntary support, brings us all onto the same page. We continue to learn and try to find ways to persuade rather force others.

Cathleen
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lasse

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 07:46:21 am »

If the FSP is moving to NH, how come NH keeps voting Democrats into office?
Might be because the Democratic candidates are slowly but surely turning away from the national norm.. Or because of migrating Massholes moving like locusts from the state they already pilfered dry. I prefer the more cheery alternative, but who knows. :-\
Does freedom mean allowing abominations of gay marriage and abortion?
'Abortion' is a euphemism for murder, only those that excuse it as not being so are the ones who support it. It's a very splitting issue. As for 'gay marriage', anyone who stands for liberty would say that it is not the role of government to regulate marriage one way or the other.
Do Libertarians hate the Constitution?
How confrontational! I love the idea of the Bill of Rights but I don't enjoy the parts where the Constitution establishes a central bank, monetary monopoly, postal monopoly, etc, etc. Others would disagree and defend it, others still would hold up the Articles of Confederation instead.
Why did Libertarians stand against the Iraq War  - a war to stand up to the Islamo-facists?
It's not government's place to spend trillions of other people's money to fly around the world blowing up whoever they want. Some people here do agree with the Iraq War though, neolibertarians or such. You can find their viewpoints at sites like coxandforkum and the ayn rand institute.
Why are Libertarians so obsessed with legalizing marijuana?  Is marijuana the most important thing a Libertarian thinks about?
Drugs don't interest me at all on a personal level but if someone wants to smoke a pile of some grass I don't see why that is any of government's business. It is kinda a symbol of ridiculous regulation - smoking a plant leads to jail time, drinking alcohol is perfectly normal and legal, even though one is just as intoxicant, inebriating, impairs your driving skills just as much, etc..
Are Libertarians pro-criminal or into coddling criminals?
Looking at the bunch of congress critters who get to define 'criminals' I'd say it depends entirely on the law. Treating the laws written by people like Teddy Kennedy (may God not rest his soul for a second) and his ilk as the ten commandments and condemning anyone who dare break some spurious federal regulation is very counterproductive, IMO.
Do most Libertarians believe in the obsolete and erroneous theory of evolution as an explanation of the creation of llife?
If they do or not is completely irrelevant as no libertarians would want to force evolutionism or creationism on any others through public education (which any libertarian worth his salt will be utterly against) or otherwise.
Do Libertarians vote for Republicans over Democrats or the other way around?
I get the impression very few Democrats get libertarian votes as currently in NH the small-government politicians cluster in the Republican Party.
Do some Libertarians harbor some love for Obama?
Given that Obama is a self-serving, thieving socialist I doubt that. If they do I think they've misunderstood quite a few things.
Is Libertarianism really a subset of Conservatism?
Nope. Lots of constitutional conservatives around, though.
Will this New Hampshire be one Nation under God or one Nation under Ron Paul?
Neither, I would hope..
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 04:59:46 pm by lasse »
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 08:29:08 am »

I may be a Conservative ..... I like conserving good things like water, food, fuel..... but not bad things like republican politicians, iraq wars, drug wars, or obama

I might be a Libertarian .... since i like to have liberty and I support other people having liberty.

many people in the fsp and in NH might be the same
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Bazil

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 08:46:49 am »

@Bazil
Is there another graph, or a site?
I can't read this very well.
The words are scrunched and the colors are similar.

Here is the new image.  I decreased background contrast, made the text white and added a drop shadow.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 10:52:11 am by Bazil »
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Battlecry

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 09:19:25 am »

I had thoughts on this subject

I put them here:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=17999.0

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=18047.0

I discontinued the series, didn't see the point in cat herding.
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Battlecry

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 09:29:28 am »

I may be a Conservationist ..... I like conserving good things like water, food, fuel..... but not bad things like republican politicians, iraq wars, drug wars, or obama

I might be a Libertarian .... since i like to have liberty and I support other people having liberty.

many people in the fsp and in NH might be the same

fxt
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When the Nazis came for the communists, I said nothing; I was, of course, no communist.
When they locked up the Social Democrats, I said nothing; I was, of course, no Social Democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists, I said nothing; I was, of course, no trade unionist.
When they came for me, there was no one left who could protest.
This is why we must fight for all

Bazil

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 09:58:31 am »

I had thoughts on this subject

I put them here:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=17999.0

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=18047.0

I discontinued the series, didn't see the point in cat herding.

You should finish it and submit it to some publication, it's good.
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Dreepa

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Re: Conservatives and Libertarians.
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 10:31:58 am »

I'm conservative and these are some things I'm mulling around in my head. 


If the FSP is moving to NH, how come NH keeps voting Democrats into office? Does freedom mean allowing abominations of gay marriage and abortion?  Do Libertarians hate the Constitution?  Why did Libertarians stand against the Iraq War  - a war to stand up to the Islamo-facists? Democrat opposition is understandable - they love Dictators. Why are Libertarians so obsessed with legalizing marijuana?  Is marijuana the most important thing a Libertarian thinks about?  Are Libertarians pro-criminal or into coddling criminals?  Do most Libertarians believe in the obsolete and erroneous theory of evolution as an explanation of the creation of llife?  Do Libertarians vote for Republicans over Democrats or the other way around?  Do some Libertarians harbor some love for Obama?  Is Libertarianism really a subset of Conservatism?  Will this New Hampshire be one Nation under God or one Nation under Ron Paul?




Uhm NH voted for Dems in 2006 and 2008 BECAUSE of the Iraq war.  It is not about 'islamofacism'.. if it was we would invade Saudi Arabia.

Lots of questions...

libertarians aren't obsessed with MJ... they just think that they should be able own their own bodies.  I think that the 'drug war' is worse than the drugs.
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