Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?  (Read 17832 times)

madness!

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 371
    • please feel free to friend me
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2009, 05:55:00 pm »

US Constitution.  Separation of powers.

Because the executive branch of government is elected separately at fed-state-county levels, enforcement folks answer to voters separately.  Courts have held that police do not have to enforce the law in every instance, and good cops exercise careful discretion in each encounter.

the separation of powers doesnt allow the executive branch to ignore the legislative and judicial branches... that would make the president have supreme authority of the USA. Why would congress pass bill if the executive didnt have to enforce them? The police would run wild and act as judge jury and executioners if they were immune from the judiciary...
Logged

yeah, an actual signature. does that blow your mind?!

Jeff LaGrange

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 445
  • AKA (1) poorkollegekid (2) Axon Hillock
    • Facebook
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2009, 06:04:57 pm »

US Constitution.  Separation of powers.

Because the executive branch of government is elected separately at fed-state-county levels, enforcement folks answer to voters separately.  Courts have held that police do not have to enforce the law in every instance, and good cops exercise careful discretion in each encounter.

the separation of powers doesnt allow the executive branch to ignore the legislative and judicial branches... that would make the president have supreme authority of the USA. Why would congress pass bill if the executive didnt have to enforce them? The police would run wild and act as judge jury and executioners if they were immune from the judiciary...

Isn't this what the Feds are doing in practice now? LOL
Logged
"No nation however powerful, any more than an individual, can be unjust with impunity.  Sooner or later, public opinion, an instrument merely moral in the beginning, will find occasion physically to inflict its sentences on the unjust... The lesson is useful to the weak as well as the strong." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1804.

"It is the trade of lawyers to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour." -  Thomas Jefferson

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Thomas Jefferson

madness!

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 371
    • please feel free to friend me
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2009, 06:11:24 pm »

i guess.  :-\ but at least now they kinda have to hide it or lie, as opposed to doing it in broad daylight. Jackson was able to ignore the supreme court. thus we have the trail of tears.
Logged

yeah, an actual signature. does that blow your mind?!

John Edward Mercier

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6534
  • Native
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2009, 07:28:53 pm »

Separation of powers, brah.  Cops (executive branch) cannot be forced to enforce a law in an instance they don't believe in. 
I'm pretty sure that would be selective enforcement.
Logged

rossby

  • Director of Development
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4801
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2009, 08:14:38 pm »

US Constitution.  Separation of powers.

Because the executive branch of government is elected separately at fed-state-county levels, enforcement folks answer to voters separately.  Courts have held that police do not have to enforce the law in every instance, and good cops exercise careful discretion in each encounter.

the separation of powers doesnt allow the executive branch to ignore the legislative and judicial branches... that would make the president have supreme authority of the USA. Why would congress pass bill if the executive didnt have to enforce them? The police would run wild and act as judge jury and executioners if they were immune from the judiciary...

Let's keep the distinction between state and federal governments clear.
Logged

mike888777

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 290
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2009, 01:08:30 am »

Separation of powers, brah.  Cops (executive branch) cannot be forced to enforce a law in an instance they don't believe in. 
I'm pretty sure that would be selective enforcement.

This is already practiced. Cops won't arrest their friends who smoke weed, but will arrest others. If they are single men they will ticket a man and give a warning to a pretty women. If selective enforcement is practiced for superficial reasons, why not have it practiced for morally high ones. The only problem I see is that you won't promoted, get the worst shifts, etc. if you make your beliefs known. Why join a career with no advancement opportunity?
Logged
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Lance

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Voluntaryist
    • website
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2009, 08:49:41 pm »

Selective enforcement is a "bad" thing, and it is raised by a defendant as a defense in effort to get a charge dismissed.  Since cops and prosecutors usually get the benefit of every doubt in court, dismissal based on selective enforcement is extremely unlikely.

Prosecutorial discretion is a "good" thing that allows police officers and prosecutors to refrain from proceeding with cases against people for various reasons.  Since these cases never get filed, any review of the individual decision is extremely unlikely.

Cheers!  :)
Logged

maxxoccupancy

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3659
  • Evil prevails when good men don't vote Libertarian
    • fija.org
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2009, 05:36:04 pm »

Not so much in New Hampshire.  Juries here are a bit more suspicious of cop testimony, though the cops here are actually pretty decent, by comparison.

You may be able to run for Constable in your town, since no one seems to want that position.  BTW, you may also be able to run for Selectman, ZBA, Conservation Commission, or something small that helps you get a better view of the State.  It will also give you a lot more cred in dealing with state officials.
Logged
If you are interested in putting together an IT-creative firm to help provide jobs for liberty folks in the future, send me a Personal Message.
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

Polemic

  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2010, 05:43:22 am »

Quote
Prosecutorial discretion is a "good" thing that allows police officers and prosecutors to refrain from proceeding with cases against people for various reasons.  Since these cases never get filed, any review of the individual decision is extremely unlikely.

Just a note. Prosecutors have prosecutorial discretion which allows them to decide if there is probable cause to go to trial and whether or not such an endeavor is in the interest of justice. Police officers are compelled (in theory) to enforce all laws and must act if he or she personally witnesses a misdemeanor or felony. If they fail to act, they've not only breached their duty, they could be liable for tortuous conduct. However, with mere infractions - such as parking tickets, police officers often have discretion depending on department policies.

Of course, we all know that not how it is in practice, but them's the rules. So to speak.
Logged
"Optimists proclaim that we live in the best of all possible worlds; pessimists fear that this is true."

maxxoccupancy

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3659
  • Evil prevails when good men don't vote Libertarian
    • fija.org
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2010, 10:22:08 pm »

That's the critical difference between a peace officer and a law enforcement officer.  A peace officer has a responsibility to deal with fights, emergencies, break ins, etc.  An LEO is charged with enforcing rules that he/she may not agree with.  Their powers may be very similar to that of a peace officer, but the training and expectations are clearly very different.
Logged
If you are interested in putting together an IT-creative firm to help provide jobs for liberty folks in the future, send me a Personal Message.
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

rossby

  • Director of Development
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4801
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2010, 10:44:25 pm »

If they fail to act, they've not only breached their duty, they could be liable for tortuous conduct.

I think you mean "tortious". And the number of cases where police are held liable for "breaching their duty" is incredibly small, usually only found in very limited factual circumstances.
Logged

Polemic

  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2010, 09:13:30 pm »

Quote
Quote
If they fail to act, they've not only breached their duty, they could be liable for tortuous conduct.

I think you mean "tortious". And the number of cases where police are held liable for "breaching their duty" is incredibly small, usually only found in very limited factual circumstances.

I apologize for the orthographical error.

As for the number of cases on point, that is irrelevant since the discussion surrounds the duties of an officer.
I was only pointing out the possibility of tort liability which denotes a duty to enforce laws with which the officer does not agree.

Also, notice the "in theory" qualification in my former post. That acknowledges any practical enforcement problems that these duties may raise.
Logged
"Optimists proclaim that we live in the best of all possible worlds; pessimists fear that this is true."

rossby

  • Director of Development
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4801
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2010, 10:43:54 pm »

I was only pointing out the possibility of tort liability which denotes a duty to enforce laws with which the officer does not agree.

And I was pointing out that the general "duty to enforce laws" does not give rise to tort liability. Not without something more.

As for the number of cases on point, that is irrelevant since the discussion surrounds the duties of an officer.

... then why was the subject of tort liability brought up?
Logged

John Edward Mercier

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6534
  • Native
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2010, 11:08:39 pm »

I think that if they fail to enforce laws... it simply means termination of employment.
Logged

maxxoccupancy

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3659
  • Evil prevails when good men don't vote Libertarian
    • fija.org
Re: Is there any FSP members that are Police Officers?
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2010, 01:05:34 am »

To heir is human.

I think that this is a critical reason for getting officers either elected directly or under someone who is.  In many cases, voters will not remove an elected police chief simply for refusing to enforce marijuana arrests, for example.  Selectmen, on the other hand, are usually pretty fearful of the general public, and tend to make bad policy decisions in front of the public.

You have to ask these people sometimes:  Did you run for office to do the job, or did you run for office to run for reelection?
Logged
If you are interested in putting together an IT-creative firm to help provide jobs for liberty folks in the future, send me a Personal Message.
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up