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Author Topic: True History  (Read 16363 times)

dbl79

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Re: True History
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2009, 11:50:13 pm »

This whole entire forum is full of great info!! i learn new things everytime I visit! thanks for the great conversations!!!
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rossby

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Re: True History
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 12:08:03 am »

- I just mentioned earlier here that my understanding is that the only income taxes before WW2 were paid by corporations and that such taxes are essentially fees in exchange for the privilege of government-granted limited liability. And the Victory tax paid during WW2 was a voluntary tax. Likewise, Social Security taxes were voluntary. What forced taxation was there?

Tax on personal income began in 1862.
Individuals were paying income tax long before, up to, and through WWII.
The federal government does not grant corporations limited liability (save for certain limited cases).
Social security has never been voluntary.
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Luck

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Re: True History
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 12:23:55 pm »

Quote
where does the Constitution grant these powers to Congress and/or the President.
The income taxes were NOT voluntary. - Dreepa
Which powers are you talking about? The power to create agencies?
AGAIN, I'm only aware of income taxes on corporations during FDR's term. Are you suggesting the Victory tax during the war was a tax forced on everyone? If you answer again, how about elaborating, rather than saying so little, that you're difficult to understand?
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Dreepa

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Re: True History
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 02:37:56 pm »

well since you insist:

    Section 8: The Congress shall have power

    To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

    To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

    To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

    To establish post offices and post roads;

    To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

    To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

    To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

    To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

    To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

    To provide and maintain a navy;

    To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

    To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;—And

    To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


I don't know that they can create all sorts of crazy agencies because they feel like it.

From Wikipedia:
Roosevelt did not raise income taxes before World War II began; however payroll taxes were also introduced to fund the new Social Security program in 1937. He also got Congress to spend more on many various programs and projects never before seen in American history. However, under the revenue pressures brought on by the depression, most states added or increased taxes, including sales as well as income taxes. Roosevelt's proposal for new taxes on corporate savings were highly controversial in 1936–37, and were rejected by Congress. During the war he pushed for even higher income tax rates for individuals (reaching a marginal tax rate of 91%) and corporations and a cap on high salaries for executives. In order to fund the war, Congress broadened the base so that almost every employee paid federal income taxes, and introduced withholding taxes in 1943.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt
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Luck

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Re: True History
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2009, 03:14:22 pm »

I still don't see FDR as a villain. Wasn't the precedent for starting agencies already set long before FDR? I still think the social security taxes were voluntary, since they're still voluntary now. The IRS didn't become the abusive agency it did until Truman's term or later. Taxes on corporations are not really taxes, as I've said.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: True History
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2009, 05:40:48 am »

The IRS is a bureau of the Department of Treasury, and it was created as BD stated in 1862.

Where FDR takes a lot of heat is the threat to expand the Supreme Court to get his way.


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JasonPSorens

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Re: True History
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2009, 09:02:27 am »

I still don't see FDR as a villain. Wasn't the precedent for starting agencies already set long before FDR? I still think the social security taxes were voluntary, since they're still voluntary now. The IRS didn't become the abusive agency it did until Truman's term or later. Taxes on corporations are not really taxes, as I've said.

Social Security taxes aren't voluntary!

P.S. Roosevelt also confiscated people's gold.
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lloydbob1

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Re: True History
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2009, 09:32:58 am »

Roosevelt's policies, like Hoover before him prolonged the depression. Many of 'the greatest generation' grew up poor during this time,often dependent on Government programs,thus creating wonderful 'fodder' for WW II,Korea, the unchallenged build up of the Military Industrial Complex throughout the 50'sand60's and the US government's intervention all around the world.
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Pat McCotter

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Re: True History
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2009, 09:53:32 am »

P.S. Roosevelt also confiscated people's gold.

He didn't confiscate. He gave them greenbacks for it.[/sarcasm]
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saiphes

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Re: True History
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2009, 11:26:03 am »



Quote
I have a degree in history and am willing to debate you on this until the end of eternity
Who wrote the history of FDR? Who has controlled the education system that teaches that history? The oligarchs who were enemies of FDR is who for the most part.



I look at this another way - The State controls the educational system.  FDR had a huge dazzling effect on society through his fireside chats.  Combine State-approved curriculum with state funded education and students who continue through state grants into college and are taught professors who recieve state research grants - the idea that anyone escapes without becoming an apologist for the state and our various heroes (FDR) is actually quite amazing.  That Keith got his degree and is a liberty activist means he must have learned both their version and the stuff they left out.  History is more than just facts - it is a study of method. 

The history of FDR is written deeply in our cultural history - that people had his picture hanging in their living rooms is the extent to which the new fancy radio lulled them into feeling that he was one of them.  That he created agencies paints the actions with a benign brush - it was anything but.  While many people were simply interested in going about their business, FDR's "agencies" were enforcing price controls of all sorts with coercive consequences.  "As long as the money funding the agencies was voluntary, I see no problem [with coercive action against a man who charged 35 cents to press a suit instead of the prescribed 40 cents]"

Before John T Flynn wrote about Roosevelt, he was a leftist with populist inclinations...
Read the Roosevelt Myth:
http://mises.org/books/rooseveltmyth.pdf

I disagree that FDRs policies were socialist.  They were Fascist :).  Nationalism with corporatist economic ideology.  Directing business solely for the health of the state.

Jessop
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Luck

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Did Congress Lose Quorum in 1861?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2010, 05:04:42 pm »

* Some people claim that Congress didn't have enough members in attendance in early 1861 to make a quorum, that being the minimum number needed to conduct business, so it had to adjourn till Lincoln called an emergency session that summer. The claim goes on that Lincoln and Congress created a corporation, called the United States, which substituted for the federal government and the corporation has retained control ever since. I also read others say that the emergency powers or something gave them the right to change the number needed for a quorum, so there was no problem. So I can't tell which claim is right.
* I heard also that the government borrowed money from European bankers for the Civil War and the bankers demanded that the government create that corporation of the United States. But I also heard elsewhere that Lincoln turned down the offer of bankers to lend the government money, because they wanted too high an interest rate, which is why he printed greenbacks, I think.
* So I hope to find reliable sources of info on which of these claims are right. Does anyone know of such sources? I thought the info might be useful for a new declaration of independence.

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sonio

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Re: True History [Now Re Civil War]
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2010, 06:42:54 pm »

If SS taxes are voluntary who do I talk to about not paying those anymore??!?!?!!?!?!??!
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McToast

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Re: True History [Now Re Civil War]
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2010, 07:45:22 pm »

SS is voluntary
http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10023.html#must

Must my child have a Social Security number?

No. Getting a Social Security number for your newborn is voluntary. But, it is  a good idea to get a number when your child is born. You can apply for a Social Security number for your baby when you apply for your baby’s birth certificate. The state agency that issues birth certificates will share your child’s information with us and we will mail the Social Security card to you.

If you wait to apply at a Social Security office, you must show us proof of your child’s U.S. citizenship, age and identity, as well as proof of your own identity. We must verify your child’s birth record, which can add up to 12 weeks to the time it takes to issue a card. To verify a birth certificate, Social Security will contact the office that issued it. We do this verification to prevent people from using fraudulent birth records to obtain Social Security numbers to establish false identities.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: True History [Now Re Civil War]
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2010, 09:40:10 pm »

If SS taxes are voluntary who do I talk to about not paying those anymore??!?!?!!?!?!??!
The taxation itself is not voluntary.
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sonio

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Re: True History [Now Re Civil War]
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2010, 09:41:26 pm »

If SS taxes are voluntary who do I talk to about not paying those anymore??!?!?!!?!?!??!
The taxation itself is not voluntary.

So, since I am forced to pay for it, it isn't voluntary.
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It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. – Charles A. Beard
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