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Author Topic: Libertarian Party  (Read 14412 times)

ShrineGuard

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2003, 10:34:32 am »

I would definatly agree that bashing Ron Paul for 'selling out' or anything of the sort is quite rediculous.

Check his voting record, it tells it all.  Does it matter what party he is with?  I thought that we wern't huge party followers here.  When Ron Paul ran for the House in 1996, the National Republican Party spent almost one million dollars trying to keep him from being elected.

He is also one of the most reachable Congressmen, and is incredibly friendly to anyone, including constituants and non-constituants, republicans, democrats, socialists, libertarians, whatever.

A model Congressman is what Ron Paul is, not a traitor.

Speaking of such, does anyone know how much Ron Paul knows about the FSP?
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Radar

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2003, 01:00:00 pm »

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Almost all of the FSP members are prepared to compromise on most issues.

Then the FSP has already failed and will never experience actual freedom.

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I have the question: Would ron be elected if he run as Libertarian? I do not think so.

Does it matter?  Sorry, but the ends don't justify the means.  Getting elected isn't more important than selling your soul to the devil and the Republican party is most certainly the devil when it comes to freedom.

I love how so many ignorant people say, "I'll vote for the Libertarians when they can win an election."  That's high up on the stupid comments list.  If you voted for them they would have a chance at winning the election.  Saying you'll vote for them if they can win is like saying, "I'll only vote for them if they don't need my vote."  I hate people who use their vote like they're betting on a horse.  They want to vote for the winner.  

The Libertarian party has the only candidates who will never compromise your freedom for their wallets.  Not now, and not if they were in power; Not ever!  The Libertarian party is the only party that represents smaller government in America and therefore the only party that represents freedom.    If you vote for a candidate other than a Libertarian, you're voting against freedom, against the Constitution, against small government with limited powers, and against returning America to a Constitutional republic where power mostly resides in the states.  If you vote for a Republican or Democrat you're saying you love what they've been doing and you want more of the same.  

If you vote for any candidate other than a Libertarian, you're wasting your vote.  If you desire freedom (especially within your lifetime) and you vote for a candidate other than a Libertarian, you're a traitor to yourself.

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Check his voting record, it tells it all.

He has a fine voting record.

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Does it matter what party he is with?

Absolutely.  It matters very much.  

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A model Congressman is what Ron Paul is, not a traitor.

I didn't accuse him of being a traitor.  George W. Bush is guilty of treason, I do consider him a traitor, but not Ron Paul.  He's just misguided and a sell-out.  I admire his desire to effect change but not to the point you side with the enemy.
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ShrineGuard

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2003, 02:14:58 pm »

Sorry for using the word traitor instead of sell out, as you had said.

I just feel like having at least one man in D.C. who votes libertarian is better than none, irregardless of party.  As I made an allusion to earlier, while he may be a member of the Republican Party, they rarely want anything to do with him...He just doesn't side with them at all, and they ignore him now.
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BobW

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2003, 02:55:49 pm »

Hi Radar,

In my zippered day planner with some plastic business card holders, I've got a real good quote I've carried around for years;

"In the contest between yourself and the world, bet on the side of the world."  Soren Kirkegaard

You take suppositions and then argue them as facts.  What I see you doing is a major question that evolved from the French Revolution; do you try to rehabilitate old and failed institutions or do you start fresh with new ones?  There's no answer.  This also is a political question.

The US electorate is divided on several major issues.  You are taking your opinion and making it "gospel".  Half the country has a different opinion than you on the abortion issue.  The half against you will argue you deny freedom to the unborn.

A large segment of the voting body politic believe freedom exists when welfare programs - yes, welfare recipients vote, and they get rides to the polling place-are comprehensive as they are not today.

The list is large and you are familiar with the different topics.

A strong argument can be developed that your political party is not a bona fide political party, just by the lack of capitalization.  

My point is not to discourage you to leave your positions and the LP.  It is to say that there's more than one defining opinion out there.

You can be 100% correct but in the meantime do accept that there's other views.  It's possible but I don't expect to learn of an Archdiocese in Saudi Arabia in my lifetime.  I'm prepared to concede otherwise.  

The test question is to ask yourself what is the weakest point you are making.  If you answer to yourself "nothing", you must do some more thinking.  Wyoming is a good place.  So is New Hampshire.

BobW
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MajesticLeo

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2003, 03:43:34 pm »

While it might be somewhat amusing to read the inane ravings of the person calling him/herself AlaskaWoman, attempting to answer his/her accusations is an exercise in futility.  By his/her own admission, nothing he/she has so far said has anything to do with his/her personal beliefs or desire to learn.  While I subscribe to the idea we must be able to educate the majority of voters to the values porcupines profess, it is obvious this "person" only desires a forum in which to gain attention.  I am not sure Sandy has it quite right in her post because the level of discourse presented by "Alaskan Woman" more resembles the ramblings of a 10 or 12 year old than that of a teenager.  Since he/she self-admittedly only desires to inflame others and cause dissent, further comment to or about him/her would seem to be counterproductive.  Just my personal opinion of course. :P
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2003, 07:52:33 am »

And yet either we like it or not AlaskanWoman is the example of what we are going to meet in the state we will come to. Keep in mind half of population leans to socialism (Democrats), while the other half leans to national socialism (Republicans). Not too many ever heard about Libertarians. For over 24 hundred years world admires Platon's Republic. It takes from 8 to 12 years in average for somebody to switch his / her thinking to individualist way. And only if that person will apply heavy thinking.
In everyday contact people will ask again and again the same questions, criticizing us from their collectivist stand point. They will be stubborn, unwilling to look at the matter from your perspective. Did anybody tried to make an atheist from the Christian? This is something like this. People do not apply a lot of logic, but they do apply a lot of emotions instead. And when emotions take over any further discussion is like discussion with the drunk.
We have to learn to talk patiently to “AlaskanWomens” no matter how difficult it is.
One more thing: In history there were only three parties based on philosophy: The first was Communist Party which based on Marxism. Nitze created another philosophy which become a base for Fascism. The third is Libertarian Party based on Objectivism and Laissez Faire Capitalism introduced by Von Misses. (I am not going back to free masonery of 18 century)
People are not interested in studying philosophies but they see analogy in operations. Since Democrats today deny their affiliations with the Marxism and switch back and fore without any integrity, and Republicans deny their affiliations with the philosophy of Nitze and also switch back and fore without integrity, people do not saw for time being connections between politicks and philosophy. Steel people know and sometimes remember openly acting Communists. Their devotion and activism as nowhere before.
Libertarians are very much activist and they are also devoted to philosophy of objectivism, Laissez Faire markets and so on. Without analyzing what our philosophy is people tend to compare us to communist (activism – smilingly selfless, and devotion to philosophical views – nobody knows or cares to know). When I talk to people they ask often: What are you? Communist? Or Fascist?
It is reality and we have to have patience. We can not expect somebody will become individualist just because we explained to them what individualism is and how good is to be free. People will need to se examples of freedom based legislature to asses if it is FOR THEM god, bad or indifferent. And they will not look any other than just superficially. This is reality.
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"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forgive you

Tony Stelik

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2003, 08:11:25 am »

Radar:
Did you think about millions of Randian Objectivists? They do not join Libertarians because the do not want any compromises. For the same reason they do not vote. You look for me as on the chart (The smallest political quiz)  pretty close to 100% X 100%.
How can you cope with the compromises all around Libertarian party (all less than 100% X 100%).
Do you play poker? Or chess?
Everybody must be pragmatic to be successful. Only end is not justifying the initial force, otherwise end justifies the means
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"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forgive you

Tony Stelik

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2003, 11:06:40 am »

Radar:
To whom you are answering? Where did you take those quotes from? It would be good if you reference the post number
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"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forgive you

Tony Stelik

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2003, 11:10:31 am »

Joe:
Free masonery to my knowledge were clasic liberals and they still are:)
I have learned most of founding fathers were masons, so is constitution libertarian or clasicly liberal?
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"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forgive you

JasonPSorens

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2003, 11:31:49 am »

Radar:
To whom you are answering? Where did you take those quotes from? It would be good if you reference the post number

It was a post from maXimo that I deleted for being abusive.  Maximo has been banned from the forum for repeatedly violating forum rules.  I've also gone ahead and deleted Radar's post since it was made obsolete by the deletion of Maximo's.
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Rearden

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2003, 09:46:06 am »


...has been banned from the forum for repeatedly violating forum rules.

There's something you don't see every day - a bouncer with a PhD.   (I SAID "DON'T TOUCH THE GIRLS!!!!")  ;D
« Last Edit: May 29, 2003, 09:47:53 am by Keith Murphy »
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michLinoregon

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2003, 03:47:26 pm »

Wow, this is certainly not what I expected to see. But what I am pleased to see is a discourse in differing belief systems. I think every one of us, as porcupines, small or big L libertarians, objectivists, and the like are quite aware of the fact that we do not fall in step with the "majority." But if the majority were truly represented by their elected officials I think that the majority would vote. Which doesn't happen. Which is evidence to me that "republican" and "democrat" ideology is a false dichotomy. People are dissatisfied with the choices presented, and given a choice they don't choose, thus low voter turn out consistently. What IS being chosen, is by the minority of people who do fall in step with what is being presented as the opinion of the majority! Gah! Where does it end? Does it end? Those who are very happy with status quo don't want it to end, because that requires less action, or maybe they truly think that our system is great. I think America is great, and the principles on which it was founded, even more great. Still, it is broke, and needs fixing! Thoughts?
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radracer

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2003, 05:26:49 pm »

MichLinoregon: Welcome to the forum. You are correct in your theorizing about why “America is broke and needs fixing”.
The fighting among our group (shown below) is what is hurting us.

KARL: “I want nothing to do with the LP or the "Porcupine Party." <<<meaning Free staters or Joe(Sequel to Solitar)’s Jeffersonian party he thinks he’ll be starting? I’m confused.

KARL: “These people will be slaughtered in the initial backlash.”

So, you plan not to help; just sit back and hope we fail huh?

Tony Stelik: “Did you think about millions of Randian Objectivists?”

And you know there are millions of them because? Like most people (and admittedly many Libertarians), I’m sure they have given up on the voting processes. See Votescam.com for why it may be futile to vote.

Shrineguard. I must side with you as far as Ron Paul is concerned. Having met and worked with him briefly (I met with him due to my local LP) I found him genuinely Libertarian and his voting record and objections to bigger taxes and intrusive policies is outstanding for Liberty loving Americans. True RADAR it would be better if he’d renounce his membership with the freedom hating GOP but if he brings attention to Libertarian policy then he’s doing what he can. I have tried to show people what Libertarianism is for years. Most people (correctly) hate politics and the manipulative, self-serving bureaucrats within and don’t want to hear about anything having to do with politics. Is it any wonder 80% of people polled in Massachusetts had no idea what a Libertarian was or stood for? People have the insane idea that if they “vote for the lesser of two evils” and he wins they have in some way associated themselves with a winner. I imagine some bureaucrat invented this term to justify apathetic voters too lazy to find an alternative to the duopoly of evil as I call the Demopublicans. Unfortunately it stuck and people believe it works!
What most anti-Libertarians have to rail us for is our lack of accomplishments in changing anything. Unless they have changed anything they should help us not criticise. When you realize 80% haven’t even heard of us you have to look at what we’re doing wrong. The answer? Not being connected with multi million-dollar campaign contributors (like the Republicrats) who will fund a television campaign to educate Americans of the philosophical differences between the two-headed monster, and us, which is BIG government. We keep ourselves separated from multi million dollar campaign contributors (like Lockheed etc,) correctly I must add because they must not have control over us like they do the “greedy two”. So, unless the anti-LP people want to start, fund, and control a parallel party to the LP they should take note that Jason met with many local LP groups (not Jeffersonian groups because there are few if any) on his recent tours. The LP  has been the backbone of our freedom fight for 30 years and we would look like we (FSP’rs) were avoiding the obvious if we try to pretend we are anything but Libertarian in philospohy.

Joe(Sequel to Solitar): “P.S. My city council is presently struggling with a decision to buy some real estate for cheap and re-sell it to neighboring property owners, businesses and anyone else who wants a piece.  The real estate is railroad property that the railroad has not wanted to sell to any private party -- not even the neighbors to that property.
Is this proposal Libertarian? No.
Is it Jeffersonian? You betcha!”

Oh yeah? How do you know the railroad will sell it to your city council? A Libertarian solution to this would be for one entrepreneur to buy the whole piece (again if the railroad will sell it to anyone) and parcel it off to individuals as the city council has proposed. BTW, Libertarians don’t exclude groups (city councils speaking/working for a small city for example) in setting community standards or upholding local values/standards. We are just against Federal and state intrusion. We would not be against Mormons setting their own standards (in their own city) anymore than if they got their “High elder” to buy your railroad property and redistribute it.

MajesticLeo: I think you are correct that continuing to chat with AlaskanWoman is counterproductive. My guess is that she is (as you guessed) a 12 year old playing on the computer; due to her terminology (high school language and poor spelling), temperament, and failure to absorb the ideas presented to her. Just reinforcing that view.
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michLinoregon

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Re:Libertarian Party
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2003, 05:46:36 pm »

Well as much as Alaskawoman sounds immature and uneducated, she may just be the average citizen! They need help in coming to the conclusions that others have come to. I know I was there once and thought that the government being my father, husband and big brother was a great idea, it keeps people from doing things that are dangerous. But as a wise man once said "Those who would vote for safety at the expense of liberty deserve neither" or something to that effect. It is the playing upon of fear that drives multitudes to the churches and it's very effective in getting the multitudes to vote one way or the other. Don't vote republican because they want war! Don't vote democrat they want to take all your money! They both want control, the ends don't justify the means! I'm glad that I know the truth about the false dilemma even if it is at the expense of my relatively low blood pressure!  ;D
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