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Author Topic: Big Govts Are Pathocracies  (Read 16516 times)

Luck

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Big Govts Are Pathocracies
« on: June 30, 2009, 03:35:55 pm »

(The most recent message is the last one in the thread.)

Political Ponerology
* I found this interesting link yesterday from Catherine Fitts's site http://solari.com. The link is http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski_2.htm.  Understanding how psychopaths come to rule nations, we can learn how to end their rule henceforth. We also probably need to guard against our FSP and related efforts from being taken over by psychopaths, or root out any that may already be gaining control. I suppose we need to stop having leaders and share leadership equally among all of us. Right? What follows is paraphrased from the link above, but greatly condensed. Just the same, it's still very long, requiring 4 posts. Sorry about that. Maybe I can condense it more later. - Luck

Pathocracy is rule by psychopaths. That is what the U.S., Britain and some other countries have become: pathocracies.

Psychopaths are people who have little or no conscience, who care basically only about themselves and don't care about others, except for how others can help them gain possessions, power, protection, conveniences etc. Psychopaths have a little less than average intelligence on average, but they're very good at conning normal people into obtaining things for them and protecting them from exposure. They program normal people into believing that all people are inherently good in order to avoid being discovered by them.

Lobaczewski said:
    They are aware of being different as they obtain their life experience and become familiar with different ways of fighting for their goals. Their world is forever divided into “us and them” - their world with its own laws and customs and that other foreign world [of normal people who condemn their immoral world].

    Their “sense of honor” bids them cheat and revile that other human world and its values. In contradiction to the customs of normal people, they feel non-fulfillment of their promises or obligations is customary [proper] behavior.

    They also learn how their personalities can have traumatizing effects on the personalities of those normal people, and how to take advantage of this root of terror for purposes of reaching their goals.

Susceptible people, who are influenced by psychopaths to imitate psychopathic behavior and thinking, are sociopaths.
Psychopaths make up about 6% of the population. Sociopaths make up about 12%.

    In any society in this world, psychopathic individuals and some of the other deviants create a ponerogenically active network of common collusions, partially estranged from the community of normal people.

    They dream of a world in which their simple and radical way of experiencing and perceiving reality [i.e. lying, cheating, destroying, using others, etc] would dominate, where they would, of course, be assured safety and prosperity. Those “others” [normal people] - different, but also more technically skillful - [they think] should be put to work to achieve this goal. “We,” after all, will create a new government, one of justice [for psychopaths]. They are prepared to fight and suffer for the sake of such a brave new world, and also of course, to inflict suffering upon others. Such a vision justifies killing people whose suffering does not move them to compassion because “they” are not quite conspecific [the same species as psychopaths].

The lack of psychological knowledge among the general public and the general neurosis of most people, make them vulnerable to such predators.

   Subordinating a normal person to psychologically abnormal individuals has a deforming effect on his personality: it engenders trauma and neurosis without the victims being aware. Such a situation then deprives the person of his natural rights to practice his own mental hygiene, develop a sufficiently autonomous personality, and utilize his common sense.

Psychologist George Simon, quoted above, discusses what he refers to as “Covert-aggressive personalities” which, upon reading his book, reveal themselves to be members of the psychopathy spectrum. He writes: Aggressive personalities don’t like anyone pushing them to do what they don’t want to do or stopping them from doing what they want to do. “No” is never an answer they accept. [In some cases], if they can see some benefit in self-restraint, they may internalize inhibitions [and become covertly aggressive].

        By refraining from any overt acts of hostility towards others, they manage to convince themselves and others they’re not the ruthless people they are. They may observe the letter of a law but violate its spirit with ease. They may exhibit behavioral constraint when it’s in their best interest, but they resist truly submitting themselves to any higher authority or set of principles. [They are] striving primarily to conceal their true intentions and aggressive agendas from others. They may behave with civility and propriety when they’re closely scrutinized or vulnerable. But when they believe they’re immune to detection, [they will do anything they want.]

        Dealing with covert-aggressive personalities is like getting whiplash. Often, you really don’t know what’s hit you until long after the damage is done. … Covert-aggressives are often so expert at exploiting the weaknesses and emotional insecurities of others that almost anyone can be duped…

        Covert-aggressives exploit situations in which they are well aware of the vulnerability of their prey. They are often very selective about the kinds of people with whom they will associate or work. They are particularly adept at finding and keeping others in a one-down position. They relish being in positions of power over others. It’s my experience that how a person uses power is the most reliable test of their character… [Simon, op. cit.]

Now, just imagine that the almost 1 in 25 people mentioned by Martha Stout in “The Sociopath Next Door,” being the very ones who seek and achieve positions of power and authority in just about any field of endeavour where power can be had, and you begin to understand how truly damaging this can be to an entire society. Imagine school teachers with power over your children who are “covert-aggressives.” Imagine doctors, psychologists, “ministers of the faith” and politicians in such positions.

With this understanding, we begin to get an even better idea of how psychopaths can conspire and actually pull it off: in a society where evil is not studied or understood, they easily “rise to the top” and proceed to condition normal people to accept their dominance, to accept their lies without question.

We see exactly this pattern of social development in the United States over the past 50 to 60 years or even more. The fact is, many people who may have been born “normal” have become what might be termed “secondary psychopaths” or characteropaths due to the influence of psychopathy on American culture from many fields - including science, medicine, psychology, law, etc - where they are conscious of what they are doing to “normal” people!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 11:17:53 am by Luck »
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Luck

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Re: This Explains Everything: U.S. Is Pathocracy
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2009, 03:36:24 pm »

PART 2.
    A social structure dominated by normal people and their conceptual world easily appears to the psychopath as a “system of force and oppression. If it happens that true injustice does, in fact, exist in that given society, pathological feelings of unfairness and suggestive statements can resonate among those who have truly been treated unfairly. Revolutionary doctrines may then find approval among both groups although their motivations will actually be quite different.

    The kind of excessive egotism which hampers the development of human values and leads to misjudgment and terrorization of others well deserves the title “King of human faults.” Difficulties, disputes, serious problems, and neurotic reactions sprout up around such an egotist like mushrooms after a rain. Egotist nations start wasting money and effort in order to achieve goals derived from their erroneous reasoning and overly emotional reactions. Their inability to acknowledge other nations’ values and dissimilitudes, derived from other cultural traditions, leads to conflict and war. […]

    Pathocracy at the summit of governmental organization does not constitute the entire picture of the “mature phenomenon”. Such a system of government has nowhere to go but down.

    Any leadership position - down to village headman and community cooperative managers, not to mention the directors of police units, and special-services police personnel, and activists in the pathocratic party - must be filled by individuals whose feeling of linkage to such a regime is conditioned by corresponding psychological deviations. After such a system has lasted several years, one hundred percent of all the cases of essential psychopathy are involved in pathocratic activity; they are considered the most loyal, even though some of them were formerly involved on the other side in some way.

    Under such conditions, no area of social life can develop normally, whether in economics, culture, science, technology, administration, etc.

    Pathocracy progressively paralyzes everything.

    Pathocracy matures when an extensive and active indoctrination system is built, with a suitably refurbished ideology constituting the vehicle of Trojan horse for the process of pathologizing the thought of individuals and society. The goal is never admitted: forcing human minds to incorporate pathological experiential methods and thought patterns, and consequently accepting such rule.

    During the initial shock, the feeling of social links are fading; after that has been survived, however, the overwhelming majority of people manifests its own phenomenon of psychological immunization. Society simultaneously starts collecting practical knowledge on the subject of this new reality and its psychological properties. Normal people slowly learn to perceive the weak spots of such a system and utilize the possibilities of more expedient arrangement of their lives. They begin to give each other advice in these matters, thus slowly regenerating the feelings of social links and reciprocal trust. A new phenomenon occurs: separation between the pathocrats and the society of normal people. The latter have an advantage as regards talent, professional skills, and healthy common sense. They therefore hold certain cards. The pathocracy finally realizes that it must find some “modus vivendi” or relations with the majority of society: “After all, somebody’s got to do the work for us.”

    There are other needs and pressures, especially from outside. The pathological face must be hidden from the world somehow, since recognition by world opinion would be a catastrophe. … Primarily in the interests of the new elite and its expansionary plans, a pathocratic state must maintain commercial relations with the countries of normal man. Such a state aims to achieve international recognition as a certain kind of political structure; it fears recognition in terms of clinical diagnosis.

    All this makes pathocrats tend to limit their measures of terror, subjecting propaganda and indoctrination methods to certain cosmetology and to accord the society they control some margin of autonomous activity, especially as regards cultural life. The more liberal pathocrats would not be averse to giving such a society a certain minimum of economic prosperity in order to reduce the irritation level, but their own corruption and inability to administer the economy prevents them from doing so.

    What would happen if a state of affairs ensued which conferred internal peace, corresponding order, and relative prosperity within the nation?

    The overwhelming majority of the country’s population -being normal - would make skillful use of all the emerging possibilities, taking advantage of their superior qualifications to fight for an ever-increasing scope of activities. Thanks to their higher numbers, there would be a higher birth rate of their kind, and their power would increase. This majority would be joined by some sons from the privileged class who did not inherit the psychopathic genes. The pathocracy’s dominance would weaken steadily, finally leading to a situation wherein the society of normal people take back the power. To the pathocrats, this is a known and nightmarish vision.

    Thus, the biological, psychological, moral, and economic destruction of this majority of normal people is a “biological” necessity to the pathocrats. Many means serve this end, starting with concentration camps and including warfare with an obstinate, well-armed foe who will devastate and debilitate the human power thrown at him, namely the very power jeopardizing pathocrats rule. Once safely dead, the soldiers will thereupon be decreed heroes to be revered, useful for raising a new generation faithful to the pathocracy.

    Any war waged by a pathocratic nation has two fronts, the internal and the external. The internal front is more important for the leaders and the governing elite, and the internal threat is the deciding factor where unleashing war is concerned. In pondering whether to start a war against the pathocratic country, one must therefore give primary consideration to the fact that one can be used as an executioner of the common people whose increasing power represents incipient jeopardy for the pathocracy.

    Pathocracy has other internal reasons for pursuing expansionism through the use of all means possible. As long as that “other” world governed by the systems of normal man exists, the non-pathological majority of the country’s population will never stop dreaming of the reinstatement of normal man’s system in any possible form. This majority will never stop watching other countries, waiting for the opportune moment; its attention and power must therefore be distracted from this purpose, and the masses must be educated and channeled in the direction of imperialist strivings. Such goals must be pursued doggedly so that everyone knows what is being fought for and in whose name a harsh discipline and poverty must be endured. This latter factor effectively limits the possibility of “subversive” activities on the part of the society of normal people.

    The ideology must of course furnish a corresponding justification for this alleged right to conquer the world, and must therefore be properly elaborated. Expansionism is derived from the very nature of pathocracy, not from ideology, but this fact must be masked by ideology.

    The law furnishes insufficient support for counteracting a phenomenon whose character lies outside the possibilities of the legislator's imagination. Pathocracy knows how to take advantage of the weaknesses of such a legalistic manner of thinking.
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Luck

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Re: This Explains Everything: U.S. Is Pathocracy
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2009, 03:37:45 pm »

PART 3.
    Whenever a nation experiences a “system crisis” or a hyperactivity of ponerogenic [evil-producing] processes within, it becomes the object of a pathocratic penetration whose purpose is to serve up the country as booty. It will then become easy to take advantage of its internal weaknesses and revolutionary movements in order to impose rule on the basis of a limited use of force. After forcible imposition of such a system, the course of pathologization of life becomes different; and such a pathocracy will be less stable, depending for its very existence upon the factor of never-ending outside force.

    Brute force must first stifle the resistance of an exhausted nation; people possessing military or leadership skills must be disposed of, and anyone appealing to moral values and legal principles must be silenced. The new principles are never explicitly enunciated. People must learn the new unwritten law via painful experience. The stultifying influence of this deviant world of concepts finishes the job, and common sense demands caution and endurance.

    This is followed by a shock which appears as tragic as it is frightening. Some people from every social group - whether abused paupers, aristocrats officials, literati, students, scientists, priests, atheists, or nobodies known to no one - suddenly start changing their personality and world-view. Decent Christian and patriots just yesterday, they now expose the new ideology and behave contemptuously to anyone still adhering to the old values. Only later does it become evident that this ostensibly avalanche-like process has it s natural limits.

    Pathocracy imposed by force arrives in a finished form - we could even call it ripe. People observing it up close were unable to distinguish the earlier phases of its development; when the schizoidals and characteropaths were in charge.

Linda Mealey of the Department of Psychology at the College of St. Benedict in St. Joseph, Minnesota, has recently proposed certain ideas in her paper: The Sociobiology of Sociopathy: An Integrated Evolutionary Model. These ideas address the increase in psychopathy in American culture by suggesting that in a competitive society - capitalistic by definition - psychopathy is adaptive and likely to increase.

She argued that some individuals seem to have a genotype that disposes them to psychopathy. Psychopaths always appear in every culture, no matter what the socio-cultural conditions. Competition increases the use of antisocial and Machiavellian strategies and can counteract pro-social behavior.

    Some cultures encourage competitiveness more than others. High levels of competitiveness are associated with high crime rates and Machiavellianism.

    High population density, an indirect form of competition, is also associated with reduced pro-social behavior and increased anti-social behavior.

The conclusion is that the capitalistic way of life associated in the United States with “democracy,” has optimized the survival of psychopaths with the consequence that it is an adaptive “life strategy” that is extremely successful in U.S. society, and thus has increased in the population in genetic terms as well as acting as an attractor to psychopathic individuals in other countries for quite some time. The fact is, America is probably flooded with psychopaths and Skirtoids, as Lobaczewski mentions. What is more, as a consequence of a society that is adaptive for psychopathy, many individuals who are NOT genetic psychopaths have similarly adapted, becoming “effective” psychopaths, or “characteropaths” in the ways Lobaczewski has described.

What makes the psychopath so frightening and dangerous is that he or she wears a completely convincing “Mask of Sanity”. This may at first make such a person utterly persuasive and compellingly healthy, according to psychiatrist Harvey Cleckley. Cleckley was first to describe the key symptoms of the disorder.

In general, the successful psychopath “computes” how much they can get away with in a cost-benefit ratio of the alternatives. Among the factors that they consider as most important are money, power, and gratification of negative desires. They are not motivated by such social reinforcement as praise or future benefits or the well-being of others - even including those one would suspect them to care about, such as their own families. Studies have been done that show locking up a psychopath has absolutely no effect on them in terms of modifying their life strategies. In fact, it is shown to make them worse. Effectively, when locked up, psychopaths just simply learn how to be better psychopaths.

The past behavior of a society will be used by the psychopath (or psychopathic network) to predict the future behavior of that society. Like an individual player, a society will have a certain probability of detecting deception and a more or less accurate memory of who has cheated them in the past. The society will also have a developed, or not developed, proclivity to retalliate against a liar and cheater. Since the psychopath is using an actuarial approach to assess the costs and benefits of different behaviors (how much can he get away with), it is the actual past behavior of the society which will go into his calculations rather than any risk assessments based on any “fears or anxieties” of being caught and punished that empathic people would feel in anticipation of doing something illegal.

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Luck

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Re: This Explains Everything: U.S. Is Pathocracy
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2009, 03:38:15 pm »

PART 4
Thus, in order to reduce psychopathic behavior in society and in government, a society must establish and enforce a reputation for high rates of detection of deception and identification of liars, and a willingness to retaliate. In other words, it must establish a successful strategy of deterrence.

Since the psychopath is particularly unable to make decisions based on future consequences, only able to focus attention on immediate gratification - short-term goals - it is possible that such individuals can be dealt with by establishing a history of dealing out swift social retaliation. That is, identifying and punishing liars and cheaters must be both immediate and flawlessly consistent, thus predictable in it’s occurrence.

And here we come to the issue concerning real-world human social interactions on a large scale: reducing psychopathy in our leaders depends upon expanding society’s collective memory of individual players’ past behavior. Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.
Any reasonable scan of the news will reveal that lies and cheating are not “covered up” as thoroughly as American apologists would like to think.

Even the less well-informed Americans have some idea that there was certainly something fishy about the investigation into the assassination of JFK. In recent years, the man in charge of the Warren Commission, Gerald Ford, also a former President, admitted to “cheating” on the report when he admitted to changing the placement of one of the bullet wounds in the final report.

Then, there was Watergate followed by the Iran-Contra affair, not to mention “Monica-gate”. Those seem almost naïve compared to the lies of the current people in power. The lies of the Bush gang, from stolen elections, to the 9/11 attacks, and through the infamous weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, have taken the art of lying to heights that would impress Hitler himself. And here we are just hitting some highlights, most familiar to all Americans.

What consequences did the cheaters of society suffer?

None to speak of. In fact, in nearly every case, they were rewarded handsomely with those things of value to the psychopath: money and material goods. If anyone thinks they were shamed by public exposure, think again!

But what is of crucial interest here is the fact that the American people have simply not responded to the revelations of lies in government with any outrage that could be considered more than token. At the present time, there isn’t even “token outrage”.

Don’t you find that odd?
But we have already noted the reason: the American way of life has optimized the survival of psychopathy and in a world of psychopaths, those who are not genetic psychopaths, are induced to behave like psychopaths simply to survive. When the rules are set up to make a society “adaptive” to psychopathy, it makes sociopaths of everyone. As a consequence, a very large number of Americans are effective sociopaths.

And so, we have George Bush and the Fourth Reich calculating how much they can get away with by looking at the history of the reactions of the American people to cheating.

There aren’t any because the system is adaptive to psychopathy. In other words, Americans support Bush and his agenda because most of them are effectively like him. But that is not because they are all born that way. It is because psychopathy is required to survive in the competitive, capitalist U.S. Society.

As a society gets larger and more competitive, individuals become more anonymous and more Machiavellian. Social stratification and segregation leads to feelings of inferiority, pessimism and depression among the have-nots, promoting the use of “cheating strategies” in life that then make the environment more adaptive for psychopathy in general because those who are suffering will respond positively to any sign of change, even if they don’t realize that the change is being proposed by those who will actually make their lives worse.

In America, a great many households are affected by the fact that work, divorce, or both, have removed one or both parents from interaction with their children for much of the day. This is a consequence of Capitalistic economics.

When the parents are absent, or even when one is present but not in possession of sufficient knowledge or information, children are left to the mercies of their peers, a culture shaped by the media. Armed with joysticks and TV remotes, children are guided from South Park and Jerry Springer to Mortal Kombat on Nintendo. Normal kids become desensitized to violence. More-susceptible kids - children with a genetic inheritance of psychopathy - are pushed toward a dangerous mental precipice. Meanwhile, the government is regularly passing laws, on the demand of parents and the psychological community, designed to avoid imposing consequences on junior’s violent behavior.

The fact is, it is almost a mechanical system that operates based on the psychological nature of human beings, most of whom like to live in denial or need to live in denial to please their parents, their peers, their religious leaders, and their political leaders. All they want to do is have some relaxation to enjoy the “American Dream.” After all, “if ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise”. This is most especially true when we consider the survival instinct of the ego. If the official culture - created by psychopaths - says that there is no "man behind the curtain", working through the inculcated belief systems, there is little possibility that most people will be able to see the source of the ponerological phenomena in our world.

Consider all of the foregoing information now in relation to the 9/11 attacks and the fact that so many Americans find it almost impossible to believe that their government officials would wantonly sacrifice the lives of its citizens to further their personal agendas. More importantly, consider the fact that your government knows how you think only too well. In fact, they have CREATED your thinking processes!
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CurtHowland

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Re: This Explains Everything: U.S. Is Pathocracy
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2009, 06:35:39 pm »

Stop obeying.
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"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

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Luck

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* The first step needed seems to be for this kind of info to become widely known, so the public realizes that psychopaths make up a significant percentage of the population, many of whom are already in positions of power. Then, in order to remove or reform such psychopaths somehow, we need perhaps to set up systems to identify them and get popular support to remove or reform them effectively.
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rossby

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* The first step needed seems to be for this kind of info to become widely known, so the public realizes that psychopaths make up a significant percentage of the population, many of whom are already in positions of power. Then, in order to remove or reform such psychopaths somehow, we need perhaps to set up systems to identify them and get popular support to remove or reform them effectively.

Will psychopaths run these systems?
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Luck

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Quote
Will psychopaths run these systems?
* Many of them would very probably try to run them and thus try to make them ineffective.
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Luck

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* Here is a quote from http://www.geocities.com/lycium7/psychopathy.html.
In truth, psychopathy knows no boundaries.

First of all, it is found among all social classes. Such character disordered people are not only the charming con men and dangerous gold diggers that Dr. Hare warns us about, not only are they the lower-class, drunken, drug abusing "sociopaths" which Dr. Black writes about, they are also people who hold high positions in society, as Jungian author Guggenbuhl-Craig has said, because those who cannot love want power.

Some may disagree, but it has been well known that the socially adept psychopath, while his personal life may lie in disarray, is not incapable of reaching the heights of power (Hitler was a very good example of this). Hervey Cleckley also wrote about the socially adept psychopath in great detail.

Only as of late, with all the Enron scandals and related crimes, people are waking up to the fact that the most dangerous psychopath of all is the educated, socially adept psychopath, in fact, Dr. Hare recently said that he would probably be able to find many psychopaths involved in the stockmarket. It is time for American to "wake up" says Dr. Wolman, because we are being threatened by a serious epidemic of psychopathy.

In addition, the majority of psychopaths (4% of the population, although some think this is a modest estimate) are not just serial killers or greedy, cut-throat CEOs, but many are abrasive personalities who enjoy making life difficult for others. These psychopaths enjoy controlling others and "winning," and creating an environment of hostility and bitterness.
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Luck

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* Below is Dr. Hare's Checklist for Psychopathy from http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/psychopathy_checklist.html. Having some of these symptoms would not make one a psychopath, but having many of them would, especially symptoms 2, 5, 6, 8, 15, 16, 20 & 25. Small parts of 7, 9 & 13 apply to me a little: shallow affect, lack of motivation [to get a regular job in corrupt society], [somewhat] lacking direction in life etc. An FSP member told me that Thorazine, which I was on for a few months in 1970, is a very dangerous drug, causing brain damage, like most other mental health drugs. Here's a quote from http://www.sntp.net/drugs/tranquilizers.htm about such drugs.
Suggestion and authoritarianism are common enough in the practice of medicine but only in psychiatry does the physician actually damage the individual's brain in order to facilitate control over him or her. I have designated this unique combination of authoritarian suggestion and brain damage by the term iatrogenic helplessness. Iatrogenic helplessness is key to understanding how the major psychiatric treatments work . There is little or no reason to anticipate a physical treatment in psychiatry that will control severely disturbed or upset people without doing equally severe harm to them. If psychosurgery, electroshock, or the more potent psychiatric drugs were refined to the point of harmlessness, they would approach uselessness. In biopsychiatry, unfortunately, it's the [brain] damage that does the trick.

* Now here's Dr. Hare's Checklist for Psychopathy
1. GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example. >

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have a low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.

4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING -- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.

6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and unempathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims.

7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.

8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.

9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.

10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.

11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR -- a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.

13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.

14. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.

15. IRRESPONSIBILITY -- repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.

16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

17. MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS -- a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.

18. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY -- behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.

19. REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE -- a revocation of probation or other conditional release due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.

20. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY -- a diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.       

* Here I'm adding some of Cleckley's original list of symptoms of psychopathy.

21. ... average or above average intelligence. [I think this contradicts the first article on this thread.]

22. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.

23. Absence of anxiety or other "neurotic" symptoms, considerable poise, calmness, and verbal facility.

24. Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience.

25. Pathological egocentricity, total self-centeredness, incapacity for real love and attachment.

26. Lack of any true insight, inability to see oneself as others do.

27. Ingratitude for any special considerations, kindness, and trust.

28. Fantastic and objectionable behavior, after drinking and sometimes even when not drinking--vulgarity, rudeness, quick mood shifts, pranks.

29. No history of genuine suicide attempts.

30. Failure to have a life plan and to live in any ordered way, unless it be one promoting self-defeat.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 12:29:32 am by Luck »
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J’raxis 270145

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Good analysis of the Fedgov (of governments in general), but I do have an objection to labelling such people “psychopaths” (or the use of any such psychological labelling). Here’s an interesting quote I saw on another forum that sums up nicely my thoughts on the use of psychology in political contexts:—

Quote
[S]truggle of Szasz: against the use of psychoanalysis as a weapon to dismiss and dehumanize people, ideas, and groups that the analyst doesn’t happen to like. Rather than criticize or grapple with the ideas or actions of people on their own terms, as correct or incorrect, right or wrong, good or bad, they are explained away by the analyst as caused by some form of neurosis. They are the ideas or actions of neurotic, or “sick,” people: so if the people themselves are not to be incarcerated in institutions as “mentally ill,” then their ideas or attitudes may be treated in the same manner.

And something I wrote a while back on psychology in general:—

Quote from: J’raxis 270145
[I]t’s long been my belief that, whereas knowledge of psychology can be extremely useful in trying to understand a person, ascertain the motivations behind their actions, and so on, applied psychology (the labeling of people as “healthy” vs. “sick,” e.g., calling someone a “pscyhopath”) is nothing more than a pseudoscience: An attempt at rationalizing and “scientizing” traditional Western/Christian morality. It’s always struck me as a bit more than coincidence that so many behaviors that psychology labels “sick” are also considered “immoral” in our society (and even more interesting, often not considered immoral in other societies, e.g., suicide, various paraphilias). It’s also particularly interesting how when the psych establishment removes something from the DSM (their big list of so-called mental illnesses), it happens after, not before, a social movement comes about and convinces our society that such behavior shouldn’t be considered immoral (e.g., homosexuality).

Now having read the specific definition of psychopathy on Wikipedia, I think I’m going to have to add that to the list of items that demonstrate that applied psychology is nothing more than a pseudoscientific wrapper for traditional morality, as much of what I see in their “PCL-R” checklist is nothing more than harmless behavior—yet which has been traditionally considered “immoral” by Western/Christian standards.

Whether or not someone is a “psychopath”—more accurately, whether or not someone displays these particular personality traits—is wholly irrelevant to me. Only whether or not a person engages in acts of aggression (force or fraud) is. If a person displays these particular personality traits, they may very well be more likely than not to eventually engage in force or fraud, but “may” isn’t “is.”
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scamper_22

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On a practical level, it is very difficult to prevent such people from gaining power.
Even within the FSP, it might not be 100 years, but maybe 300 years from now.  Someone is going to come along and convince the poor of the need to get more government to 'help' them.

Probably not the best solution, but I think the best way to attack the issue is to prevent their ability to manipulate/bribing.

For example, rather than ban wealth redistribution which is a very easy attack for a person who wants power...
you legalize wealth redistribution, but mandate it must be placed in individual accounts of each person.  This prevents the centralization of power which is really the point of power in the first place.


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Luck

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Quote
I do have an objection to labelling such people “psychopaths”
- J
* I don't deny that there is bias in psychology, but I think Szaz throws out the baby with the bathwater. Brain damage causes numerous thinking and behavioral problems. Psychopaths have damage to the frontal lobes that makes them largely unable to care about anyone but themselves. Damage to other areas can cause schizophrenia or major depression, Alzheimers etc. MRIs or EEGs etc seem to be able to determine where there is damage in the brain. There are probably ways to effectively cure such damage, but conventional medicine cures very little, but actually causes much such damage, via psychotropic drugs, ECT etc.
* We can't have a socially healthy society if we don't have socially healthy people, especially in positions of power.
* You say
Quote
they may very well be more likely than not to eventually engage in force or fraud, but “may” isn’t “is.”
* Actually most of them have already engaged in force and fraud since early on, according to the data.
* Constitutional law seems to be very reasonable for the largest part and most public officials violate such law, so it's possible to charge such people and get them kicked out of office, as long as we can find judges who abide by the Constitution.
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J’raxis 270145

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Quote
I do have an objection to labelling such people “psychopaths”
- J
* I don't deny that there is bias in psychology, but I think Szaz throws out the baby with the bathwater. Brain damage causes numerous thinking and behavioral problems. Psychopaths have damage to the frontal lobes that makes them largely unable to care about anyone but themselves.

From what I read in that Wikipedia article, “psychopathy” is actually considered natural (just socially undesirable), not caused by damage, and is generally considered uncurable, but whatever.

To the point, I subscribe to the theory that all human activity is inherently selfish, that everything that everyone does is out of “rational self-interest.”

Acting in a manner that displays concern for others is ultimately selfish: One does so because it brings oneself pleasure or comfort to care for others. Even the most self-sacrificing, charitable soul is acting out of selfishness—he does so because he enjoys helping others more than acquiring worldly possessions for himself.

And in truth, many people act with concern for others not because they truly care about others, but because pretending to do so brings them benefits. I’m not just talking about types who “use” other people; I mean perfectly ordinary people such as the clerk at the grocery store who says, “How are you today?” and, “Thanks for shopping with us.” They’re not being friendly because they like you, necessarily; they’re being friendly because it improves sales. That salesman really doesn’t care if you like the product; he just wants you to fork over the money. That smiling waiter may hate your guts—but he’s going to be friendly and courteous and serve you because it’s in his best interest to do so.

How to tell the difference? Get inside someone’s head to see what their true motives are? Try to figure it out by observing all of their actions and engaging in potentially faulty inductive reasoning? But, why does it even matter? Why get upset at people because their motives are impure? I concern myself with people’s actions and intent, not their motivation: If what they do is good, good; if not, not. Feeling behind action is personal and really doesn’t matter.

So with all that in mind, I have a problem criticizing people outright simply because they are “largely unable to care about anyone but themselves.”

* You say
Quote
they may very well be more likely than not to eventually engage in force or fraud, but “may” isn’t “is.”
* Actually most of them have already engaged in force and fraud since early on, according to the data.

Of course—but the key is that that is the issue, not whether or not someone has an overly selfish personality type.



Anyway, my point was only to object to the use of psych terms to label and criticize people. I have no argument that the government is run by dangerously selfish people, people who are so selfish that they’re willing to engage in massive acts of aggression against others to accomplish their goals.
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Luck

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* Well, that's a nice theory of selfishness that most Libertarians and maybe Anarchists are probably familiar with. The theory certainly seems true of immature people, but it doesn't seem so true of those who are fairly mature. Many people are willing to give their lives for those they care about. And they're willing to make lesser sacrifices as well.
* I started discussing this topic on another forum that I frequent. I called the thread "What's Wrong with Science is Pathocracy" at http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2026. What's wrong with science is apparently also what's wrong with society. Here's what I said there and when I did, I decided it might be good to say the same thing here too, because it seems like potentially useful discussion.
* Well, my idea, based on the article I paraphrased here at the start, was that psychopathy and sociopathy seem to be what prevents acknowledgement of Electric Universe theory and allowance of other scientific and societal progress. And scientific method can and needs to be used to find a solution to the problem of psychopathy and sociopathy. So, what I'm most interested in, in this case, is how we might use scientific method for such a purpose. Maybe the science of engineering would have the best process to apply for this. Engineering involves planning. We need to engineer a better society. How might an engineer work on that problem? First we need a blueprint of the society we want to build. Then we need to plan how to obtain the resources, including manpower, to do the building, while taking into account the forces [psychopaths] that will attempt to destroy or mutate what we try to build.
* Is there an engineer in the house?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 03:20:17 am by Luck »
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