Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: 2nd amendment  (Read 6729 times)

sj

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3554
    • The Ridley Report
Re: 2nd amendment
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2009, 09:03:18 pm »

My main problem with Penn & Teller's explanation of the 2nd Amendment is that they incorrectly define a militia as an "organized military force."  They then differentiate between the militia and the people.  The framers of the 2nd Amendment understood the militia to be exactly what it still is: every able bodied adult male who would bring their own rifle to service.  That was why the 2nd Amendment was so important to the militia: each person had to bring their own rifle and, for the most part, be able to use it from the beginning. 

Now, obviously, the 2nd Amendment does not just apply to militia service anymore than the Article I, Section 8 limits Congress' power to make patents to those things that "promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts."  Even if you wrote a book that was, by all accounts, harmful to the progress of science and the useful arts, Congress still has the right to grant you a copyright.  Those kinds of aspirational introductory statements were common in legislation in the 18th century and, as the opinion in DC v. Heller points out, they do not limit the operative clause.

In any case, I cringe whenever people relate an organized military to the militia.  If you're in NH, able bodied and above the age of 18, you're in the NH militia (yes, women are also in the NH militia).  All able-bodied males between 17 and 45 are in the US militia.  So next time a guy (under the age of 45) says that "the 2nd Amendment is just about the militia," say, "Yeah, and you're in it!"
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 11:50:51 pm by sj »
Logged
Moved?  Email Moved@FreeStateProject.org to let them know where you landed, and to get your mover number.

rabbit20

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 367
Re: 2nd amendment
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2009, 09:09:57 pm »

In any case, I cringe whenever people relate an organized military to the militia.  If you're in NH, able bodied and above the age of 18, you're in the NH militia (yes, women are also in the NH militia).  All able-bodied males between 17 and 45 are in the US militia.  So next time a guy (under the age of 45) says that "the 2nd Amendment is just about the militia."  Say, "Yeah, and you're in it!"

Nice one :)   anyway i was posting that video because of how the 2nd amendment says the PEOPLE have the right to have a gun and not an organization...anyway I also disagree with their militia comments but agree with the personal gun rights...here is the last 1/3 of the episode...lot of good points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoIKlO20RqM&feature=related
Logged
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
  --  Thomas Jefferson
http://pledgebank.com/Next1000
http://nhliberty.org
http://cafepress.com/ridleyreport
http://www.oathkeepers.org

sj

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3554
    • The Ridley Report
Re: 2nd amendment
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2009, 09:10:48 pm »

Oh, I still like P&T on guns  ;D ...it's a very fun episode to watch.
Logged
Moved?  Email Moved@FreeStateProject.org to let them know where you landed, and to get your mover number.

charles3330

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: 2nd amendment
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2009, 11:05:35 pm »

yeah, penn and teller usually do a good job entertaining and raising interesting points at the same time. I liked their video on the first amendment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPhje8wepyg

at the same time, i think ross raises a good point. it is probably not a good idea for people who believe in gun rights to depend on federal judges to secure their rights.
Logged

rossby

  • Director of Development
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4801
Re: 2nd amendment
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2009, 12:17:48 am »

The framers of the 2nd Amendment understood the militia to be exactly what it still is: every able bodied adult male who would bring their own rifle to service.  That was why the 2nd Amendment was so important to the militia: each person had to bring their own rifle and, for the most part, be able to use it from the beginning.

Indeed. At the time, the phrase "well-regulated" didn't mean "subject to rules and regulations"; it meant "working" or "functioning". And a militia is simply not "well-regulated" if its members are intentionally disarmed.
Logged

CurtHowland

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 533
  • Mover #902. If not for the deer, maybe #901!
    • Anarchy != Chaos
Re: 2nd amendment
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2009, 01:07:31 pm »

Getting your rifle cleaned up and sighted in is still called "regulating" it in the military.

One of the problems with simply asserting that the 2nd applies to every level of government is that originally the restrictions of the bill of rights were specific to the federal government and not the states.

That's where "incorporation" comes in.

US vs Miller is very interesting in this, in that they explicitly state that, "since no evidence has been presented that a short-barrel shotgun is a military weapon, we cannot say they are protected by the 2nd amendment."

They then remanded the case back to the lower courts for fact finding, and closed the case. Neither Miller nor his lawyer had showed up, so the only argument the SCOTUS heard was the government side.

The Fed.Gov then interpreted Miller to benefit themselves, that anything and everything goes since "no evidence was presented". Yet by the plain meaning of words, anything and everything from silencers and machine guns to grenades, tanks and TOW missiles are covered by the 2nd amendment.

So what was the case prior to the SCOTUS Miller "decision" that was being decided, that in my opinion still stands because the remanded case was never heard? Miller is innocent, all federal gun control is unconstitutional.
Logged
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

Tech blog fun: http://anarchic-order.blogspot.com/
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up