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Author Topic: Proper Libertarian Parenting  (Read 20104 times)

Dreepa

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2010, 09:47:38 pm »

I raised 6 chidlren.

Every one of them responded differently to parental influence.

There is NO one right way...only the way that is right for that child.
what he said.
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VoluntaryMama

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Re: Normal vs. Insane + Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2010, 02:39:21 am »

* I recommend the tv show, Supernanny, to anyone who has kids or knows anyone who has kids. I found a website that uses a lot of the same methods that she does and it's all written out, so I copied to this link and gave the link there to the original site.
http://lincoop.lefora.com/2009/11/30/raise-good-kids
* Here are the topics covered.
1: Plan Ahead to Avoid Tantrums
2: Stop Whining & Screaming
3: Say "No" to Saying "No"
4: Get Your Kids to Clean Up
5: Reward Good Behavior
6: Establish House Rules
7: Work on Your Most Challenging Challenge
8: Take a Mommy or Daddy Time Out
9: Giving Your Kid Compliments
10: Acknowledge Mistakes and Move On
11: Say Please and Thank You
12: Work on This Week's Most Challenging Challenge
13: Pick Your Battles
14: Be a Better Listener
15: Get Your Kids Talking
16: Keep Your Cool
17: Use a Timer
18: Give Effective Time Outs
19: Boot Camp Graduation
* Supernanny has among the most effective parenting methods I've seen. She'll really help the Libertarian cause.
* I recommend the tv show, Supernanny, to anyone who has kids or knows anyone who has kids. I found a website that uses a lot of the same methods that she does and it's all written out, so I copied to this link and gave the link there to the original site.
http://lincoop.lefora.com/2009/11/30/raise-good-kids
* Here are the topics covered.
1: Plan Ahead to Avoid Tantrums
2: Stop Whining & Screaming
3: Say "No" to Saying "No"
4: Get Your Kids to Clean Up
5: Reward Good Behavior
6: Establish House Rules
7: Work on Your Most Challenging Challenge
8: Take a Mommy or Daddy Time Out
9: Giving Your Kid Compliments
10: Acknowledge Mistakes and Move On
11: Say Please and Thank You
12: Work on This Week's Most Challenging Challenge
13: Pick Your Battles
14: Be a Better Listener
15: Get Your Kids Talking
16: Keep Your Cool
17: Use a Timer
18: Give Effective Time Outs
19: Boot Camp Graduation
* Supernanny has among the most effective parenting methods I've seen. She'll really help the Libertarian cause.

???
Are you really serious? This is how a Libertarian should raise a child? Sure looks like a lot of force, disrespect, and inequality to me.
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1776

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2010, 08:24:55 pm »

I think the term "Proper Libertarian Parenting" is kinda funny..and a bit oximoronic    ;D
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sj

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2011, 12:23:27 pm »

I think the term "Proper Libertarian Parenting" is kinda funny..and a bit oximoronic    ;D

Libertarian parenting isn't an oxymoron at all.  Here's a truism: children aren't adults. 
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MaineShark

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2011, 05:28:59 pm »

I think the term "Proper Libertarian Parenting" is kinda funny..and a bit oximoronic    ;D
Libertarian parenting isn't an oxymoron at all.  Here's a truism: children aren't adults.

No, but they are far more able than most folks give them credit for.

For example, babies do the "goo goo, ga ga" thing, because that's how adults speak to them.  Nearly everyone I know who actually spoke to their children in a normal manner, had children that were using words far earlier than "expected," and with actual vocabularies by age one.

Children understand things like property and barter.  Maybe not fully, but they grasp the basics.  It's possible to parent in ways that work with the child's understanding, and enhance his growth and liberty, just as it's possible to stifle his freedom and make him think that arbitrary authority is the norm.

In any case, I would presume that 1776 was actually joking about the "proper" part, not the "libertarian parenting" part.

Joe
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Luck

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2011, 10:55:28 am »

Quote
Vol.Mama said: Are you really serious? This is how a Libertarian should raise a child? Sure looks like a lot of force, disrespect, and inequality to me.
* Do you seriously think I'm promoting authoritarian methods disguised as libertarian?
* Supernanny does not use authoritarian methods. She avoids using any form of punishment, verbal abuse etc. She doesn't have a written list of parenting methods online that I know of, so I found written material from a couple of other nannies online, which seem to be about the same as Supernanny's methods.
* What most people and parents lack these days is discipline. People tend to go to extremes, either being authoritarian or permissive. Authoritarianism often involves arbitrary discipline along with abuse. Permissiveness usually involves no discipline at all. The proper method is loving discipline. That means, having ground rules in the family, such as no hitting, name-calling etc, and enforcing those rules without hurting. Enforcement involves things like putting the child on a seat, if they fail to heed a proper warning, and making them stay there for a few minutes according to age.
* This is no different from physically stopping a child from walking out in front of a car on the street. Putting them on a time-out seat is stopping them from walking recklessly through life in their relationships with people. Discipline teaches them healthy ways to interact with people. It's proper to teach them such discipline. It's irresponsible not to. Many people don't know that, because they weren't taught proper discipline themselves.
* There can't be a free society, if the people don't have proper self-discipline.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 10:57:15 am by Luck »
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WendellBerry

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 02:31:15 pm »

Floridian - wanted to compliment you on your parenting style and the way you explain it.

In my humble opinion, most all issues of human intimate relationships (including parent/child) boils down to issues of proper, respectful boundaries that lead to a healthy, balanced sense of self - not too selfless and not too full of self.

I would highly recommend Dr. Brene Brown's work to anyone...

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 02:35:03 pm by WendellBerry »
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Luck

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2011, 04:19:45 pm »

* Thanks for that.
* Brene Brown says some interesting things there. Like the U.S. is the most obese, addicted, over-medicated and politically polarized that it's ever been. She seems to say that one of the problems is that people have more sense of shame and unworthiness than ever; they fear to be vulnerable and they seek perfectionism.
* She got her education in sociology, it seems, which involves psychology somewhat as well. But I think amateurs tend to come up with more practical insights than do professionals. Professionals tend to be brainwashed by their peers and "authorities". I don't know, but my guess is that Supernanny was self-taught. Of course, there are a few pros who are mavericks and more self-taught than brain-washed.
* 12 Step groups are among the best amateur organizations that I know of. They're not nearly as good as they need to be, but they provide a lot of opportunity for somewhat ordinary  people to gain insights to solve major life problems.
* John Holt, who used to publish a magazine, called Growing Without Schooling, used to promote a book called The Continuum Concept, by Jean Liedloff. Jean had gone to Venezuela with a couple of friends and, while the friends were exploring at times, she stayed with a jungle tribe. She eventually noticed that the people of the trive were very odd. The adults always seemed to be happy. The kids always seemed happy too and they never fought with each other, never did name-calling and never misbehaved. It appears to be because they never felt shamed or unworthy, at least in part. They felt loved. They were also held constantly for the first 8 months of infancy.
* Later I found a website by a psychologist, Clancy McKenzie, [http://DrMcKenzie.com] who found that most people who suffer major depression or schizophrenia had traumas in early childhood, such as extended aloneness, like when the mother or the child was sick etc. And electroencephalograms, EEGs, showed that their brainwave patterns were the same as people who suffered from PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. That's typical of combat veterans et al.
* What I think works best in 12 Step programs is what they call moral inventory and amends, but what I call self-correction. In childhood we're prone to getting lots of misconceptions, some of which often cause us great insecurity and stress. Doubting our worthiness is one such misconception, that comes apparently from feeling unloved or not respected. 12 Step groups tend to be accepting and respecting, so members feel more loved and it's easier then to believe we're worthy.
* When the worst misconceptions from childhood are not corrected, the insecurity will likely lead to chronic stress, which people tend to try to numb, which leads to problems with addiction, emotions, relationships, or abusive behavior. Brene Brown mentioned that one problem with numbing unpleasant feelings is that good feelings are also numbed. The real solution is self-correction, which means letting the unpleasant feelings be wake-up calls that tell us we have misconceptions, so we can discover what the main ones are and correct them.


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Floridian

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2011, 07:20:51 pm »

Floridian - wanted to compliment you on your parenting style and the way you explain it.

In my humble opinion, most all issues of human intimate relationships (including parent/child) boils down to issues of proper, respectful boundaries that lead to a healthy, balanced sense of self - not too selfless and not too full of self.

I would highly recommend Dr. Brene Brown's work to anyone...

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html

Thanks WendleBerry.  I posted that a while ago.  So far, I continue to be impressed by the choices my children make and their attitude toward life.  I give most of the credit to their mother who is one of the most rational people I know.  We are looking at coming to Porcfest and y'all can maybe meet us and form your own conclusions... I think my children are great company.
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Luck

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2011, 01:44:44 pm »

* Below are quotations from a post I just made at my Govt News Blog thread. It shows how some of the states describe the difference between child abuse and acceptable discipline. The author claims that what is called acceptable discipline is actually child abuse and I tend to agree. But then, imprisonment for such things as child abuse is also usually abusive and two wrongs don't make a right.
* Here's my view on what is acceptable discipline. I believe that discipline is a human need, just as affection, excitement, freedom and cooperation are human needs. Inflicting physical or emotional pain is NOT effective or acceptable discipline. But there is a fine line between what is acceptable and effective and what is not. Supernanny suggests using a time-out discipline in order to get children to adjust to proper house rules for a family. Proper rules include no hitting, name-calling, back-talk, disobedience etc. And when such rules are broken, the time-out discipline is used, which involves placing the child, if a pre-teen, on a chair, or spot, or in a room, for one minute for each year of age, giving the reason for the time-out and the request to think about it and requiring an apology when it's over and then giving hugs.
* Some may contend that forcing a child to stay in time-out for a time is abusive, but I think not. If a child engages in dangerous practices, like walking out into a busy street without looking, a parent is obligated to do more than simply ask the child not to do that. The parent should forcibly prevent the child from doing such things. And that's what time-out is. It's forcibly preventing a child from continuing harmful behaviors that are against house rules.
* Without learning such discipline, children become authoritarian and abusive of others, esp. when reaching adulthood.
* Here's the quotation.

[E]very state in our country has legalized abuse of children under some guise or other… or no guise at all. Look at some of what exists in some of our “united states”*:

Abuse does not include physical discipline of a child if reasonable and moderate and inflicted by a parent or guardian for restraining or correcting a child…
A parent who is committed to correcting a child in non-abusive ways will find non-abusive ways.

Any investigation of child abuse shall take into account the child-rearing practices of the child’s culture.
This allows a group or a family in which abuse has taken place generation after generation to continue that abuse under the guise of ‘culture.’

… may use reasonable physical force, when and to the extent that he reasonably believes necessary to maintain discipline or promote welfare of minor
Even someone who could not control his rage at a child who is so hurt or so frightened he can’t stop crying can say he ‘believes’ the abuse was necessary.

Corporal discipline of a child by a parent or legal custodian for disciplinary purposes does not in itself constitute abuse when it does not result in harm to the child.
Every act of abuse, corporal discipline or otherwise, does result in harm of some kind to the child.

Abuse includes physical cruelty in excess of that required for reasonable disciplinary purposes.
Do you realize what this says? That some physical cruelty is reasonable for disciplinary purposes, but abuse is only physical cruelty in excess of that.

Abuse includes a parent, guardian, or other person with control or custody inflicting excessive corporal punishment (which must be excessive to the point that the child’s physical, mental, or emotional condition has been impaired or is in imminent danger of becoming impaired as a result).
I have worked with adults who were abused as children. Their mental and emotional selves were changed by even the threat of being hit. Their mental and emotional selves were changed by witnessing their siblings or their other parent being hit. The actual experience of being hit – even once – for whatever reason, deepens and escalates that change in ways most people cannot imagine… instilling terror in them, mind, body, heart, and soul.

... What does the legal ok to children being abused in our country tell us about us as a society? Especially in light of the existence of 28 countries in our world (including Germany) that make corporal punishment of children by parents unlawful!
Read more here: http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/corporal-punishment-child-abuse/
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:10:37 pm by Luck »
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Uncle Walt

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2011, 03:10:30 pm »

* Supernanny ... avoids using any form of punishment...

Wrong.  She DOES use punishment. 

A "time out" is a punishment, and she uses that a lot - and quite effectively. 
She also encourages parents to physically take the child to the "time out" area, when the child refuses to go voluntarily.
However, she does prefer rewarding children for good behavior rather than punishing them for bad behavior.
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Floridian

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2011, 06:35:22 pm »

My one rule of parenting, is another way of saying "Do all you have agreed to do" and/or "Keep your word".  My parenting rule is:

IF YOU SAY IT, YOU HAVE TO DO IT.

...there will be times when you have to apply force and/or encroach on your children, especially when they are little.  By the time they are about 5 years old, children are more open to reason and force becomes unnecessary. 

Update:  My children got spanked once or twice when they were little.  We call it nonverbal communication.  They are in high school now, are great people and have bought in to much of the libertarian philosophy.  I remember when I put my eldest in time out at age 3 and he said: "When you put me in time out, I just think about more bad things." :P I also remember when he came home from the public school and informed me that if I were to hit him, it is prosecutable if it leaves a mark.  Not that it ever would have come to that...
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MaineShark

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2011, 08:36:41 am »

* Supernanny ... avoids using any form of punishment...

Wrong.  She DOES use punishment. 

A "time out" is a punishment, and she uses that a lot - and quite effectively.

No.  The purpose of a time-out is to separate the child from the situation, when the child is locked into a pattern of escalation.  Separate them from that situation for a few minutes, and reason has time to re-assert itself over emotion.

If you're using a time-out as punishment, you're missing the point.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2011, 12:03:07 pm »

When it comes to children, people worry too much about quality and not enough about quantity.  Libertarians have some of the world's lowest fertility rates as the result.  There's no such thing as perfect parents or a perfect childhood.  Good or bad, being alive is what's important.
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Floridian

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Re: Proper Libertarian Parenting
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 04:11:46 pm »

* Supernanny ... avoids using any form of punishment...

Wrong.  She DOES use punishment. 

A "time out" is a punishment, and she uses that a lot - and quite effectively.

No.  The purpose of a time-out is to separate the child from the situation, when the child is locked into a pattern of escalation.  Separate them from that situation for a few minutes, and reason has time to re-assert itself over emotion.

If you're using a time-out as punishment, you're missing the point.

When they were little, I put them in time out.  Now that they are all teenagers, I put myself in time out when things start to escalate... take a deep breath, stop talking, listen and try to smile.  :-\
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