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Author Topic: Man arrested for public gardening  (Read 36908 times)

ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2009, 12:17:22 pm »

But the city of Keene maintains the land, right?  So whether they have the authority to be a government or not, they're still an organization that has mixed labor with the land.  You don't need authority to own land.
I don't think so. A city employee recently arrested a man who was putting  in a garden in central square.

If it was your land, you would have the right to escort someone off your property if they were gardening there without your permission.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2009, 06:53:49 am »

How does that analogy apply?  Who did they steal the land from?
I am sure you would get many different answers to that question.
I don't think they stole it from anyone .... I don't think it is in their possession.
You seem to infer that they killed native americans and should not give it back, since they are not alive.
I saw a video of a native american starting a garden using traditional organic methods and a thug took his hoe and handcuffed him. Hopefully he will be able to peacefully garden again soon.
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lloydbob1

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2009, 07:15:34 am »

But the city of Keene maintains the land, right?  So whether they have the authority to be a government or not, they're still an organization that has mixed labor with the land.  You don't need authority to own land.
I don't think so. A city employee recently arrested a man who was putting  in a garden in central square.

If it was your land, you would have the right to escort someone off your property if they were gardening there without your permission.
It was his land.  He shares it with 22,000 others.
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sonio

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2009, 11:21:27 am »

Since he pays, through taxes, for the upkeep of the land why should he not be able to use land that is public access and that he pays to maintain?

Really people.
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citizen_142002

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2009, 08:14:45 pm »

So the people who are saying that this protest was justified would be behind me if I decided to take a jackhammer and a shovel and start digging up city parking in Keene to put in swimming pools? Can I block off Main Street and start laying light rail lines because I think rail is better than auto transport? How about taking a police car for a spin at 45 MPH through a city park?

This protest probably pushed more people away from libertarianism than led them towards it. I'm no fan of public property, but I don't think that you can use the theory that public property is communally held to justify destroying/commandeering it. I don't think most average folk in Keene who saw this were moved by how it illustrated the tragedy of the commons. They just saw a nut digging up the town square.

Regardless of the philosophic motivations activism is only constructive if it makes pro-liberty folks look good or makes government look bad in the eyes of average citizens. I don't think that this activism was constructive even if it was well intentioned.
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ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2009, 08:58:11 am »

But the city of Keene maintains the land, right?  So whether they have the authority to be a government or not, they're still an organization that has mixed labor with the land.  You don't need authority to own land.
I don't think so. A city employee recently arrested a man who was putting  in a garden in central square.

If it was your land, you would have the right to escort someone off your property if they were gardening there without your permission.
It was his land.  He shares it with 22,000 others.

also @sonio,

I'm not sure why anyone would get hung up on this point.  Aren't you familiar with corporations or cooperatives?  You can have a share of an organization without that giving you the right to do what you want with property owned by the organization.
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ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2009, 09:06:08 am »

How does that analogy apply?  Who did they steal the land from?
I am sure you would get many different answers to that question.
I don't think they stole it from anyone .... I don't think it is in their possession.
You seem to infer that they killed native americans and should not give it back, since they are not alive.
I saw a video of a native american starting a garden using traditional organic methods and a thug took his hoe and handcuffed him. Hopefully he will be able to peacefully garden again soon.

I don't know how the city of Keene took possession of the land because I don't know the history of the area.  The native american scenario is just a guess.  But it seems like the government has mixed labor with the land, so they have that claim to it.  Perhaps they originally stole it from someone, but I don't think they stole it from Jesse.

Any way you look at this scenario, the land doesn't belong to Jesse, not in the sense that he can decide by himself what to do with it.  That is, unless there's some crazy history that I don't know about, like Jesse's great-great-grandfather owned the land before the government came along and took it from him.
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MaineShark

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2009, 12:19:53 pm »

I think he's asking how what you did was anti-taxation or anti-violence, which is what I'm wondering.  I know you don't think the government has a right to tax, but they do own the land.  So if you're for strong property rights, then it seems you would agree they have a right to say what goes on, on their property, even to protect their property by force, if necessary.

They don't own the land.  They just claim that they do.

And if you want to get technical, suppose the land was purchased from someone with money that was 95% voluntarily given and 5% stolen.

Then the government's behavior is illegitimate.  Any amount of initiated force (no matter if it's 5% or 0.5% or 0.00000005%) makes an action illegitimate.

I think I could liken the problem to this situation.  Suppose most people think the government is a triangle in the Euclidean plane.  As such, they go about their lives as if the sum of the internal angles of the triangle equal 180 degrees.  Jesse realizes that the government is a triangle in a non-Euclidean plane.  So he starts acting like the internal angles add up to 270 degrees because they do.  And people think he's crazy.  If he wants those other people to have an epiphany, to realize that the world is not what they think it is, then he needs to show them that the angles don't add up, not to just start acting as if they don't.

He should act in accordance with the false view held by the majority, even though he's abiding by the correct view?  What sense does that make?  The majority of Americans believe that Yahweh fathered a child on some woman named Mary, and that child was a Messiah.  I think that's incorrect.  Should I just go to their churches and pretend like I believe their religion, even though I don't?

I don't know how the city of Keene took possession of the land because I don't know the history of the area.  The native american scenario is just a guess.  But it seems like the government has mixed labor with the land, so they have that claim to it.  Perhaps they originally stole it from someone, but I don't think they stole it from Jesse.

It doesn't matter who they stole it from.  Or if they purchased it with stolen funds.  The fact that they used theft to obtain it means that they don't own it, and no amount of mixing labor (paid for with more stolen funds, no doubt) can change that, because of the illegitimacy of their original theft.

Thieves don't own what they steal.  Nor do they own things that they obtain using the proceeds of their thefts.  If the goods or equivalent value can be returned to the victims, then the victims own it.  If you stole my car and sold it to a chop shop, and it was destroyed or otherwise rendered useless to me, but I knew that you purchased a TV with the funds you got from your thievery, I would be within my rights to take that TV as partial restitution for your actions.  Since Jesse is one of their victims, he just chose some portion of the land they purchased with stolen funds, and decided to take that portion as part of his just restitution for the violation which he endured.

Joe
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2009, 03:10:20 pm »

ggeezz, how can you defend those who aggress against their peaceful neighbors?
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sonio

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2009, 03:44:06 pm »

But the city of Keene maintains the land, right?  So whether they have the authority to be a government or not, they're still an organization that has mixed labor with the land.  You don't need authority to own land.
I don't think so. A city employee recently arrested a man who was putting  in a garden in central square.

If it was your land, you would have the right to escort someone off your property if they were gardening there without your permission.
It was his land.  He shares it with 22,000 others.

also @sonio,

I'm not sure why anyone would get hung up on this point.  Aren't you familiar with corporations or cooperatives?  You can have a share of an organization without that giving you the right to do what you want with property owned by the organization.

Yes, of course I have heard of these things.  These things are however, are not an accurate comparison because one chooses to be part of a co-operative or a corporation.  The government "public" (butreallynotatall) lands are a matter of force, not choice.

Sorry, no cigar.   ;D
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ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2009, 04:12:21 pm »

ggeezz, how can you defend those who aggress against their peaceful neighbors?

And I think you've gotten to the point.  You all seem to be saying that since it's government, those who aggress again their peaceful neighbors, it doesn't matter what they do.  It's wrong.  But in this case, it seems it is Jesse doing the aggressing.  And you're defending him just because you have a beef with the government.

I would rather defend who is right according to sound principles regardless of who they are.
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sonio

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2009, 11:22:27 pm »

How is Jesse aggressing against anyone by growing a garden on land that he is FORCED TO PAY TO MAINTAIN?

That is what I don't understand.
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rossby

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2009, 11:49:22 pm »

How is Jesse aggressing against anyone by growing a garden on land that he is FORCED TO PAY TO MAINTAIN?

I think the question here is academic--the City of Keene has not complained that Jesse was using the land in a way inconsistent with the City's desire. IIRC, the complaint is that he was "excavating without a permit".
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ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2009, 07:17:59 am »

How is Jesse aggressing against anyone by growing a garden on land that he is FORCED TO PAY TO MAINTAIN?

That is what I don't understand.

Paying to maintain it is no different than owning a share in it, WRT the fact that neither gives you the right to use the land as you please.

Imagine that 9 people form a corporation and coerce a 10th person to join.  They each pay $1000, buy a tract of land, and set up voting procedures to determine the use of the land.  That 10th person has a valid qualm about not wanting to be part of the corporation, and he should be able to get his money back.  But that doesn't mean he can do what he wants with the land.  He doesn't own the land; the corporation does.  The fact that the corporation owes him $1K is a different issue.

Perhaps the 10th person could say that he is going to take 1/10th of the land as his recourse.  That may make sense, but he should be clear about what he is doing and why.
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ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2009, 07:19:49 am »

How is Jesse aggressing against anyone by growing a garden on land that he is FORCED TO PAY TO MAINTAIN?

I think the question here is academic--the City of Keene has not complained that Jesse was using the land in a way inconsistent with the City's desire. IIRC, the complaint is that he was "excavating without a permit".

Isn't that the same thing?  The city would only grant a permit to excavate their land if they desired that excavation to happen, and the requirement for a permit is to keep undesired excavation from happening?
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