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Author Topic: Man arrested for public gardening  (Read 35756 times)

AnarchoJesse

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2009, 02:43:24 pm »

Dreepa,

I'm not sure what point it proves.  What point did he make?  He deserved to be arrested.  All it showed me was how well the police officer handled the situation.  I'm more outraged by his actions that the 'waste' of money by the government.


So you'd rather be an apologist for violence, taxation, and a government monopoly on land?
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ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2009, 03:00:47 pm »

Dreepa,

I'm not sure what point it proves.  What point did he make?  He deserved to be arrested.  All it showed me was how well the police officer handled the situation.  I'm more outraged by his actions that the 'waste' of money by the government.


So you'd rather be an apologist for violence, taxation, and a government monopoly on land?

I think he's asking how what you did was anti-taxation or anti-violence, which is what I'm wondering.  I know you don't think the government has a right to tax, but they do own the land.  So if you're for strong property rights, then it seems you would agree they have a right to say what goes on, on their property, even to protect their property by force, if necessary.  That makes the situation confusing, rather than a clear protest against the abuses of government.

But like I said, props to you for being out there doing something.  That's more than most people can say.
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pvincent87

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2009, 05:39:46 pm »

Quote
If you bought shares of Google, that wouldn't give you the right to even access all of their property, much less make changes to it.

Does Google steal your income like the government does? No? Then how does this analogy work?!?  :o
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2009, 09:43:58 pm »

Government (men and women willing to aggress against their neighbors) cannot own anything in the same way a thief doesn't own the things he buys with stolen money.

"Public" land is either owned by everyone or by no one.  Either way, Jesse was totally in the right by using "his" land or by homesteading unowned land.

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MK

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2009, 10:57:18 pm »

Not on the Green In Keene!

Nice Shot Lloyd!! 
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sonio

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2009, 11:20:36 pm »

Government (men and women willing to aggress against their neighbors) cannot own anything in the same way a thief doesn't own the things he buys with stolen money.

"Public" land is either owned by everyone or by no one.  Either way, Jesse was totally in the right by using "his" land or by homesteading unowned land.



++++
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2009, 06:38:03 am »

  I know you don't think the government has a right to tax, but they do own the land. 
why does the government own the land?

in Rights of Man, Thomas Paine does a great job of showing the illegitimacy of the British government's claim to the land ... it was based on the fact the Normans killed people and took the land, then they passed it on to their heirs. That didn't seem like a decent way to obtain ownership to land.

Jesse is mixing useful labor into that land ... not other people's blood.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 07:35:49 am by Russell Kanning »
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ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2009, 08:30:02 am »

Quote
If you bought shares of Google, that wouldn't give you the right to even access all of their property, much less make changes to it.

Does Google steal your income like the government does? No? Then how does this analogy work?!?  :o
Quote from: FreeKeene.com's Ian
Government (men and women willing to aggress against their neighbors) cannot own anything in the same way a thief doesn't own the things he buys with stolen money.

"Public" land is either owned by everyone or by no one.  Either way, Jesse was totally in the right by using "his" land or by homesteading unowned land.

The problem is that the majority of people recognize the government as legitimate and taxes as legitimate.  That doesn't give the government the right to steal from you.  But as I understand it, Jesse wasn't out there just to amuse himself.  He's trying to convince other people of the ills of government.  To someone who willingly gave their money to the government, or even begrudgingly gave their money to the government, yet recognizes the validity of government, Jesse is the vandal here.

Government is not calling the land "public land" the way you use the term "public land."  They're clear that the land is owned by the government.  And if you want to get technical, suppose the land was purchased from someone with money that was 95% voluntarily given and 5% stolen.  I'm not sure what that means, as far as who owns the land, but I don't think the land becomes homesteadable or that Jesse owns it.  I'm guessing it's more likely that the government did the equivalent of homesteading on this property a long time ago.  The government might be a horse thief, but a horse thief can still homestead property.  The best you might say here is that Jesse has a right to take back something equivalent to whatever taxes he has paid to the government.  Maybe that's enough to buy enough land to do what he was doing, maybe not.  But how is anyone supposed to know this is what he's doing?

I think I could liken the problem to this situation.  Suppose most people think the government is a triangle in the Euclidean plane.  As such, they go about their lives as if the sum of the internal angles of the triangle equal 180 degrees.  Jesse realizes that the government is a triangle in a non-Euclidean plane.  So he starts acting like the internal angles add up to 270 degrees because they do.  And people think he's crazy.  If he wants those other people to have an epiphany, to realize that the world is not what they think it is, then he needs to show them that the angles don't add up, not to just start acting as if they don't.
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ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2009, 08:33:49 am »

  I know you don't think the government has a right to tax, but they do own the land. 
why does the government own the land?

in Rights of Man, Thomas Paine does a great job of showing the illegitimacy of the British government's claim to the land ... it was based on the fact the Normans killed people and took the land, then they passed it on to their heirs. That didn't seem like a decent way to obtain ownership to land.

Jesse is mixing useful labor into that land ... not other people's blood.

Maybe Keene killed some Native Americans a long time ago.  Maybe not.  Either way I doubt they're still around to give the land back to them.

Regardless, the government has mixed useful labor with the land since then too.  And they did it before Jesse.
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sonio

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2009, 04:39:11 pm »

Quote
The problem is that the majority of people recognize the government as legitimate and taxes as legitimate.

Sweet!  I agree that this is indeed the main problem.  Way to go Jesse for pointing out that neither are remotely legitimate!!!!


 ;D
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2009, 05:21:39 am »

Maybe Keene killed some Native Americans a long time ago.  Maybe not.  Either way I doubt they're still around to give the land back to them.
actually the manager of the city of keene says he gets his authority from the prez of the US because of the civil war
since some people think the government owns the land and Jesse doesn't agree .... how do we decide who is right and who gets to grow food?
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ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2009, 07:54:39 am »

Maybe Keene killed some Native Americans a long time ago.  Maybe not.  Either way I doubt they're still around to give the land back to them.
actually the manager of the city of keene says he gets his authority from the prez of the US because of the civil war
since some people think the government owns the land and Jesse doesn't agree .... how do we decide who is right and who gets to grow food?

But the city of Keene maintains the land, right?  So whether they have the authority to be a government or not, they're still an organization that has mixed labor with the land.  You don't need authority to own land.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2009, 10:35:19 am »

If I steal your bike and repair it, does that mean I own it?
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2009, 11:34:40 am »

But the city of Keene maintains the land, right?  So whether they have the authority to be a government or not, they're still an organization that has mixed labor with the land.  You don't need authority to own land.
I don't think so. A city employee recently arrested a man who was putting  in a garden in central square.
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

ggeezz

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Re: Man arrested for public gardening
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2009, 12:13:48 pm »

If I steal your bike and repair it, does that mean I own it?

How does that analogy apply?  Who did they steal the land from?
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