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Author Topic: urbanization, city and country attitudes, pop density issues  (Read 75576 times)

Solitar

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Re:Best state to get a foothold in - and choosing the footholds.
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2003, 08:55:19 pm »

Zxcv,
For that ranking by percent in cities below a threshold, I simply added up the populations of the cities above that threshold. Wilmington surprised me that the "City" according to the Census, has so few people. These are the populations which the Mayors and councils would be "responsible" to or for. See this link.
http://www.ci.wilmington.de.us/demographics.htm
The rest are either smaller incorporated cities or their local government is the County.
Wilmington: 72,664
Dover: 32,135
Newark: 28,547
(There are no other "cities" over 10,000)

Census definitions of CMSA, PMSA, and MSA are at:
http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/metroarea.html
(Which has lots of other definitions if you are curious.)
I got there by going to the bottom of the page at American Factfinder and choosing "M" for MSA
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/BasicFactsServlet?_lang=en
There are independent MSA's and the PMSA's make up the CMSA.
They do include entire counties around a city and thus a lot of potentially "rural" people.
Definitions of Rural and Urban, etc. are found here
http://www.census.gov/geo/www/ua/ua_2k.html
and here is a piece of the entire Index
http://www.census.gov/acsd/www/sub_u_v.htm

In the following table I've the percent of the total population after the category. In other words the Percent of Total Population which is "Inside Urban Clusters" is under the "UrbClu%" and the Percent of Total Population which is "Inside Urbanized Areas" is under the "UrbArea%". (note that the Census states "Urbanized" and not "Urban" when referring to those areas. The above Census links define these as follows:
Quote
"For Census 2000, the Census Bureau classifies as "urban" all territory, population, and housing units located within an urbanized area (UA) or an urban cluster (UC). It delineates UA and UC boundaries to encompass densely settled territory, which consists of: core census block groups or blocks that have a population density of at least 1,000 people per square mile and surrounding census blocks that have an overall density of at least 500 people per square mile.  In addition, under certain conditions, less densely settled territory may be part of each UA or UC. The Census Bureau's classification of "rural" consists of all territory, population, and housing units located outside of UAs and UCs."
Note that Wyoming has the greatest percentage "Inside Urban Clusters".  :-\

Here are Census numbers for Urban
StateTotal:UrbanUrban%InUrbAreaUrbArea%InUrb.Clu.UrbClu%
VT608,827232,55038.2%105,57317.3%126,97720.9%
ME1,274,923512,59240.2%313,97524.6%198,61715.6%
SD754,844391,93651.9%194,38225.8%197,55426.2%
MT902,195487,46554.0%233,96925.9%253,49628.1%
ND642,200358,39455.8%230,21735.8%128,17720.0%
NH1,235,786731,35259.2%550,94044.6%180,41214.6%
WY493,782322,07365.2%125,70625.5%196,36739.8%
AK626,932411,95565.7%278,01344.3%133,94221.4%
ID1,293,953859,10466.4%604,13846.7%254,96619.7%
DE783,600627,04580.0%531,12767.8%95,91812.2%
In the following table I've the percent of the total population after the category. In other words the Percent of Total Population which is "Farm" is under the "Farm%" and the Percent of Total Population which is "NonFarm" is under the "NonFarm%".

Here are Census numbers for Rural, Farm, and NonFarm
StateTotal:RuralRural%FarmFarm%NonFarmNonFarm%
VT608,827376,27761.8%11,2021.8%365,07560.0%
ME1,274,923762,33159.8%11,0160.9%751,31558.9%
SD754,844362,90848.1%58,2407.7%304,66840.4%
MT902,195414,73046.0%39,9304.4%374,80041.5%
ND642,200283,80644.2%43,8256.8%239,98137.4%
NH1,235,786504,43440.8%4,5990.4%499,83540.4%
WY493,782171,70934.8%15,1503.1%156,55931.7%
AK626,932214,97734.3%1,2240.2%213,75334.1%
ID1,293,953434,84933.6%38,9393.0%395,91030.6%
DE783,600156,55520.0%4,8510.6%151,70419.4%
« Last Edit: January 03, 2003, 07:33:48 am by Joe »
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Solitar

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Re:urbanisation
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2003, 07:56:23 am »

Robert may be quite correct in the following:
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Do you really think that people in Chicago, New York, Seattle, Miami, or Los Angeles are going to be impressed with libertarian reforms in Manchester?

This may be true since even many here apparently don't regard any city under a few hundred thousand as not really a city and thus not really much of a challenge (see their arguments for choosing Delaware to prove their point). But again as some of us stress, the goal is to get the Free State to work. Picking an incredibly tough opponent may be great for glory if you win, but what does it get you when you lose? Even Cheyenne or Manchester are going to be much tougher opposition to Freedom than most anyone here fathoms.

For Census data to back up the above numbers regarding urban and rural, farm and non farm
see this thread
Ranking states by city, county, urban, & rural population & percent
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5&action=display&threadid=569
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Zxcv

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Re:Ranking states by city, county, urban, & rural population & percent
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2003, 02:53:46 pm »

Jason, I looked at the definition of "Urb" on the state data page and it said:

Urb=urban population as a % of total population, 2000 Census

As a general comment it would be a good idea to put the links to the data right in the definitions (some of them have them).

Joe, this is difficult stuff to plow through. I was trying to find definitions, and found this:

Quote
Urban Area
Collective term referring to all areas that are urban. For Census 2000, there are two types of urban areas: urban clusters and urbanized areas.

Urban Cluster
A densely settled territory that has at least 2,500 people but fewer than 50,000. New for Census 2000.

Urbanized area
(UA) An area consisting of a central place(s) and adjacent territory with a general population density of at least 1,000 people per square mile of land area that together have a minimum residential population of at least 50,000 people. The Census Bureau uses published criteria to determine the qualification and boundaries of UAs.

As far as I'm concerned, for the purposes of the Free State Project: Urban clusters good; urbanized clusters bad!

Sorting (so good is on top) your table by the desirable small-city urbanization (Urban Clusters) percentages we have:
(BTW Joe how did you get your tables to line up nicely in columns?)

State InUrb.Clu. UrbClu%
WY 196,367 39.8%
MT  253,496 28.1%
SD 197,554 26.2%
AK 133,942 21.4%
VT 126,977 20.9%
ND 128,177 20.0%
ID 254,966 19.7%
ME 198,617 15.6%
NH 180,412 14.6%
DE 95,918 12.2%

Sorting in reverse order (so good is still on top) for undesireable large city urbanization percentages, we have:

State InUrbArea UrbArea%
VT 105,573 17.3%
ME 313,975 24.6%
WY 125,706 25.5%
SD 194,382 25.8%
MT 233,969 25.9%
ND 230,217 35.8%
AK 278,013 44.3%
NH 550,940 44.6%
ID 604,138 46.7%
DE 531,127 67.8%

What's with Wyoming on this last measure? Are they adding together Cheyenne and Casper? At any rate Wyoming has no cities large enough to cause FSP indigestion in passing freedom-friendly legislation, while Delaware looks pretty indigestible!

Personally, I don't see how FSP has a prayer in Delaware.

I tried to make these jive with the "Urb" measure on the state data page, but it is apparently a cruder measure that combines all types of urbanization. It makes Wyoming look one of the worst, while with these two more refined measures Wyoming is arguably the best. VT and SD also look good here.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Ranking states by city, county, urban, & rural population & percent
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2003, 03:24:01 pm »

Yes, the State Data page puts together urban clusters and urbanized areas.  I still think this is probably the right solution; how are urban clusters good?!
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Zxcv

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Re:Ranking states by city, county, urban, & rural population & percent
« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2003, 05:00:31 pm »

Well, it's just my opinion! But to me, they provide the amenities, employment opportunities, housing, etc. (some of them, anyway - these little cities aren't exactly cosmopolitan!  ;) ) that we look for in cities without having enough population to suffer the statist tendencies that large cities often have. They also make campaigning easier.

I thought from reading around here that small cities were recognized to be about optimum for us (all other factors being equal). Or am I missing something? If some other population configuration is better for us, please let me know!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2003, 05:02:41 pm by Zxcv »
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Zxcv

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Re:urbanisation
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2003, 05:26:18 pm »

Why dredge up this old thread, Joe? Aren't we juggling enough as it is?  :)

Just on the matter of showcases, I think it is a priority - not as much as having success in the first place, but still somewhat important.

I have a feeling that North Dakota won't be our state, but if we do go with Wyoming or Montana or South Dakota and are successful, North Dakota may well follow our example, in order to reverse its population decline...
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Ranking states by city, county, urban, & rural population & percent
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2003, 08:00:58 pm »

Aha, I see what you mean, Zxcv.  But I think somewhat dense small towns can be even more statist than big cities sometimes.  For example, such towns are usually more restrictive in restrictions on architecture, signs, and such things, putatively to preserve their historic character.  <shrug> I guess you could go both ways on that.  Also, I wouldn't typically think of towns under 50,000 as having a whole lot of amenities. ;)  I've lived in towns of various sizes (from 5000 to 3 million), and I'd say once you get up around 40,000 towns start to become cities in the ordinary sense of the word.  But everyone has a different idea about this, apparently.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Zxcv

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Re:Ranking states by city, county, urban, & rural population & percent
« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2003, 10:12:10 pm »

Usually when I say "amenities", I mean a place I can get a decent hamburger and a beer.   :D

Slightly more seriously, I did a google on Wyoming+art+sculpture and got 46,000 hits. There must be something out there... of course Wyoming artists might not have the requisite lisp, so maybe they are not serious.  ;)

I see your point on historic preservation (although when I look for my town I will be wanting to see an occasional dead car just to make sure they are serious about freedom, ha ha). But this historic preservation is a fairly minor tyrrany. When we are looking to pass an end to regulatory takings, gun control or homeschooling regulations, or removing charity from government, those small cities and towns should be more friendly to us than the big cities. Don't know about drugs, though...
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mactruk

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Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #83 on: January 05, 2003, 09:00:56 pm »

  My 2 cents.  I live in Montana and it would be nice if people from the east or big cities would just stay there.  
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Zxcv

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Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2003, 01:50:59 am »

Yeah, I've run into an example or two of eastern or California arrogance. It's pretty stupid.

Quote
Yet there are people from cities and even from eastern cities who've come here, watched, listened, read the old histories, talked to the oldtimers and managed to fit in. But they are rare.

When we move to our chosen state (and I mean everyone, not just easterners), we need to make an extra effort to learn the local ways, read the history and the novels set in that area, and just try to appreciate folks. If you really are having a problem with moving there or with liking the place, or if you just want to stay in a little outlander ghetto somewhere, maybe you'd better not come.

I know I've seen fair number of Californians move to Oregon, and I'd just wish they had taken the time to read Oregon novels like Ken Keysey's Sometimes a Great Notion or Craig Leslie's Winterkill, or that old classic history/guide Oregon For The Curious, so at least they'd have a clue.

We may have more trouble with our own arrogance than we have with the public employee unions. We'll just have to work on it...
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Zack Bass

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Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2003, 03:16:03 am »

 ... if you just want to stay in a little outlander ghetto somewhere, maybe you'd better not come.

This is the second subject I've found on which a lot of Porcupines seem to be less liberty-minded than current U.S. law.

How about if I am allowed to move any damn place I please, as long as I own the property or someone will rent to me?  And how about if I have the same rights, when I get there, as anyone who happens to have lived there for 40 years?  Even if I don't choose to change my accent or my beliefs or my ways.  Even if I choose to live in a ghetto with other liberty-minded folks.

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cathleeninsc

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Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2003, 09:38:07 am »

Living in liberty is your goal, and mine as well. The process of effecting change is entirely different. Americans have a great deal of experience at making enemies. We need to try something different. Let's be effective in our actions so that the liberty that we want to live in is available as soon as possible. As an FSP member, I don't see that being left alone is an option for quite some time. We have to do something and I intend to create a network of friends here and in the state we select to help me get there quickly.

In the end, I may crawl in a hole. I have had a premonition that I will be a little old lady with a shotgun, standing at the end of my drive telling everyone to "git off my land".

Cathleen in SC

                             
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Zxcv

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Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2003, 01:08:49 pm »

Zack, in what sense is my suggestion less liberty oriented? You can do what you want. You can take my suggestion or leave it. I am forcing nothing on you.

What a strange conception of liberty, you seem to have.
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Zack Bass

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Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2003, 04:14:32 pm »

Zack, in what sense is my suggestion less liberty oriented? You can do what you want. You can take my suggestion or leave it. I am forcing nothing on you.

Of course you're right.  Sorry, but that attitude just rubs me the wrong way.  Yes, it is only a suggestion, not an infringement on my Liberty.  I felt the same way when the black guy moved in across the street.

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mactruk

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Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2003, 04:20:13 pm »

 I want to put in one more cent.  The biggest problem city population types have when they move to a small or rual areas is to be able to rely on your nieghbors as opposed to government.  If the power is out or you need the police you must be able to deal with it on your own until help comes,  maybe for days.  Most city people come here and the first thing they want done is the expansion of government services and thus higher taxes.  If a place in the west is chosen it might be nice to hold - how to cope classes first.  
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