Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 ... 18   Go Down

Author Topic: urbanization, city and country attitudes, pop density issues  (Read 71092 times)

Solitar

  • Guest
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2002, 04:17:20 pm »

Diana,
Thank you for referring us to such a quote
Quote
"If Wyoming is the state, only outdoorsmen gun-rights people will move there and it will turn into a strange militia type organization the government will want to shut down."
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1094
The above goes beyond legitimate concerns about media which we expect to tar the movement. For FSP'ers to have such impressions again means they are easy prey to stereotypes that some use against the westerners, or easterners or country folk or city folk for that matter. One of our long-time posters stated:

"What I don't like is that so many people have this impression and unlike Megadeath they don't bother to find out more information about the east coast states!!!!"

Yet they turn around and badmouth the Western states as "sagebrush and sand", "desolate", and "empty".

“I've been to some areas of the West and wouldn't mind living there at all, provided my wife and I wouldn't starve.”
“You say Montana has WATER?  I've heard stories of people who drilled 600 foot wells and came up with nothing!  Maybe some parts are better than others, but in that case, we'd fill up the waterin' holes pretty quickly.”
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=35

"I'll bet the average elementary school size in Wyoming is smaller than in more densely populated states. Small towns with isolated populations, each with their own little school," [I respond to that on that thread]
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1116

"another benefit of choosing an East Coast state is that finding jobs for 20,000 people will be exponentially easier.  The housing/job infrastructure is in place." [and we're living in log cabins and have no jobs beyond roping horses or prospecting? and then there is this precious quote]
"Delaware is enviably located in the middle of the country;"
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=673

Please remember that I'm not intending to pick on any one poster but, rather, the attitudes that seem too common. There are easterners who think the Appalachians are the wild, gun-totin, moonshining west. Anything beyond the Hudson is barely civilized bear-invested boonies.

Keep adding to the list as you find such stereotypical misconceptions.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2002, 04:25:05 pm by Joe »
Logged

Zxcv

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2002, 05:19:09 pm »

As a western proponent, I have to say the misconceptions go both ways.

When people say these sorts of things, what they really are saying is, "I don't want to go there."

That's all it is. I wouldn't get too worked up about it.
Logged

wes237

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2002, 08:41:31 pm »

"So aren't those rodeo chicks the best?!?!"

That was part of a short conversation acknowledgement I had with Redbeard if my memory serves me right.  It was meant in the nicest way. As one who did a bit of rodeo'n many years ago, I have no idea what the problem is here. I don't get it.  I do have a problem with those who would obviously show their ignorance of western states because of their bias towards eastern states. It is obvious to me they don't get out much. I have lived all about the US ( east and west),  watched the population of the US almost double in my lifetime, and know this whole conversation is idiotic.
Logged

TedApelt

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 117
  • Free 50 states - one at a time.
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #63 on: January 01, 2003, 03:02:46 pm »

Keep talking.  I've got a lot of misconceptions by western country people about the East that I'd like to post  Most of them are equally silly.
Logged
How much political experience do you have?  Probably not enough.  Get some!  DO THIS NOW!!!

Solitar

  • Guest
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #64 on: January 01, 2003, 03:56:15 pm »

Wes,
I pulled that quote because it was kinda neat. If Southern California had a tiny candidate state there likely would be a quote for them too. Now is there something for the Eastern states?

Ted,
I thought about starting a "Misconceptions about the East by Westerners but I figured it would best be done by somebody from the Eastern cities. Go for it. ;D
Logged

Raider

  • FSP Participant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
  • Why are you taking my money?
Re:Ranking states by city and county populations
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2003, 11:54:54 pm »

So my guess is that for me to be productively employed, I'd need a city of 200k or more.

I work for Adelphia.  When they were one company they were the 5th largest Cable provider.  The telecom side is also quite large.    The corporate headquarters is located in Coudersport ,PA  Population 2,650.  http://coudersportpa.com/#Community%20Profile.  If sticks PA could make this attractive to Adelphia, it could be done any where for any company.
I'm sure a mechanical engineer could find some work anywhere.  You might have to tone down your spending and tighten your belt.  But so will the rest of us.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2003, 11:57:11 pm by Raider »
Logged

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:Air travel-land area considerations
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2003, 01:39:44 am »

But the more important issue here is, if we are going to be campaigning door-to-door, or putting up/handing out flyers and such, we will have a much easier time in a more dense urbanized area.  With only 20,000 people, we can be really effective in a state the size of DE, NH, VT, whereas in Wyoming or MOntana or some such place we would have a really hard time.  I would be afraid that some of the residents there would pull a gun on me for trying to campaign at their door for one thing, but gas isn't cheap either and people are just so spread out in the Western states.  

It is not like a group of 100 people are going to hand out all of the flyers and show up at all of the county fairs and food festives.  In a state like AK with 3 major population centers FSP people or native people that like freedom will live in all 3 of the major population centers and work there 3 centers.  The same thing is true for WY and MT and there cities.  People will live in all of the cities and they will work those cities.  The FSP will not run for state wide offices at first and when it does it will do that the same way the other parties do.  Besides, if the FSP decided to join the Republican party because many of the FSP members are or used to be Republican and the state we pick has a Republican party with lots of libertarians and classical liberals than we will be working through the Republican party and many of its activists will help us as we help them.  In VT we could combine with the LP, Constitutional P, and 1-2 more of its many 3rd parties and there would already be 100s of activists spread thoughout the state.  In AK we could combine with the LP, AIP, and the Constitutional P and do the same thing.

Those arguement about needing a small state to help activism has weak backing.  The FSP member will move to all partys of the state and join with like minded folks from all over the state.  We will run local TV and radio ads from Freedom groups like the American Liberty Foundation and LP.  We will also make our own.  The same goes for print adds.  We might creat a jounal or 2.  We will use bummper stickers which residents from all over the state will see.  Some of us will use yard signs and we might even stamp the money.  The marketing will not be much different in any state.  Think positive.  Everything is going well.  More people will experince the joys of freedom because of our work.

As for air travel, all of the states have at least 1 city that flyes to a large airport in a near by state (AK kind of suffers here).  God bless, we may all fly in planes to the rest of the county.
Logged

MLiq

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15
  • Delaware!
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2003, 03:34:08 am »

My comment:
"If Wyoming is the state, only outdoorsmen gun-rights people will move there and it will turn into a strange militia type organization the government will want to shut down."

was fueled by some of the discussions on yahoo group FSP cracker barrel where many people are insisting on having many hundreds of acres, being over 100 miles from any "city" defined as a mere 10,000 people, and starting our own nuclear weapons program so that we can fight the Feds when they come calling.  

I realize that not ONLY outdoorsmen gun-rights types would move to Wyoming but I am willing to wager that a much smaller percentage of the general population and FSP would want to move there than would go to an east coast state.  

A state that empty, with only one city of 50,000 people, simply does not appeal to me at ALL and I think many people share my views as evidenced by the fact that almost no one lives in Wyoming as it is.  

I realize that the extreme militia oriented people are probably being more vocal than others so its unfair to characterize all Westerners that way, but of the Western states I think ID is the best and it is still extremely unappealing to me, whereas the most vocal western people are saying the Wyoming, Montana, or SD is the best, and I refuse to move there and feel that many others will agree with me.  

I guess it will come down to a vote anyway, so this is somewhat pointless.  The Westerners on FSP cracker barrel have made it clear that even though they admit there is only one strictly logical reason that the western states are inherently better for them than the east, it is a good reason, I suppose.  They favor the West because land is cheaper there, and they want to live on 100-200 or more acres.  

Can't argue with the cold hard facts, it is cheaper.   I personally don't see why anyone NEEDS 100 acres and that hadn't been answered yet last time I checked but perhaps I just need to catch up on my reading over there.  

Land in NH can be found for less than $1000/acre but land in Wyoming can be found for as little as $300/acre, according to one of the posters.  It is an ongoing search to see what the cheapest land prices in all of these states are to satisfy the Western rurals so please post here or there if you find some cheap land in any FSP state.
Logged

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2003, 04:04:31 am »

I guess it will come down to a vote anyway, so this is somewhat pointless.  The Westerners on FSP cracker barrel have made it clear that even though they admit there is only one strictly logical reason that the western states are inherently better for them than the east, it is a good reason, I suppose.  They favor the West because land is cheaper there, and they want to live on 100-200 or more acres.  

Can't argue with the cold hard facts, it is cheaper.   I personally don't see why anyone NEEDS 100 acres and that hadn't been answered yet last time I checked but perhaps I just need to catch up on my reading over there.  

Well, I believe that there are many logical reasons for choosing the west (and I've lived in the east all my life), but cheap land is one of those considerations for anyone.  I don't have a 1000 acre spread in mind, but I wouldn't mind being able to get a few acres for the kids to roam on without mortgaging my soul for it.

Land is a good bit cheaper here in the South Carolina midlands than it was in Northern Virginia, but being able to lower that mortgage would put some much-needed cash back in the bank for other things (like activism).

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2003, 04:17:07 am »

Keep talking.  I've got a lot of misconceptions by western country people about the East that I'd like to post  Most of them are equally silly.

Hmmm...some western misconceptions about the east:

1.  It's all one big, crowded city with no green growing things or open space in sight.
2.  Everyone is rude and in a constant hurry.
3.  The whole place is polluted.
4.  There are no relatively inexpensive places to live.
5.  Everyone has to wear a three-piece suit to work.
6.  Everyone is money and power hungry.

Yes, there are a number of misconceptions on both sides.  On the whole, however, I believe that Southerners and Westerners are the brunt of more misconceptions than those living in the northeast.  When's the last time you heard a mainstream comic joke about a northeasterner as opposed to joking about Southern "hicks" and "rednecks," or Western "dirt farmers" and "sheep-herders?"

varrin

  • Former FSP President
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 999
  • THE air male
    • Varrin's FSP Info Page
Re:Air travel-land area considerations
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2003, 11:11:20 am »

Except Deleware.  It doesn't have any air service.  You'll have to drive to Philly or BWI (which both have great air service).

V-

Logged
Departed Fresno, PRC (Peoples Republic of California): October 18, 2004
Arrived Keene, FS (Free State!): October 25, 2004!
To contact me, please use email, not PM here.

Zxcv

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2003, 12:25:25 pm »

Well, Robert, I found some. Here's what a good old boy posted on another forum, you'll probably enjoy these. I did...   :D

-----------------------------

Because of misunderstandings that frequently develop
when Yankees cross states such as North Carolina, South Carolina, Alabama, and Georgia those states' Tourism Councils have adopted a new policy. In an effort to help outsiders understand the rural Southerner's mind, the following list will be handed to each person as they enter the State.

1. That slope-shouldered farm boy did more work before breakfast than you do all week at the gym.

2. It's called a 'gravel road.' No matter how slow you drive, you're going to get dust on your Navigator. I have a four wheel drive because I need it. Drive it or get it out of the way.

3. The red dirt - it's called clay. Red Georgia clay. If you like the color, don't wash your car for a couple weeks - it'll be permanent. The big lumps of it - they're called "clods."

4 . We all started hunting and fishing when we were seven years old. Yeah, we saw Bambi. We got over it.

5 . Any references to "corn fed" when talking about our women will get you whipped...by our women.

6 . Go ahead and bring your $600 Orvis Fly Rod. Don't cry if a flathead breaks it off at the handle. We have a name for those little 13-inch trout you fish for...
bait.

7 . Pull your pants up. You look like an idiot.

8. Men, if you want to wear earrings, pierce your nose and whatevers, and wear your hair long - go right ahead but if we call you ma'am, don't be offended.

9. If that cell phone rings while a bunch of mallards are making their final approach, we will shoot it. You might want to ensure it's not up to your ear at the time.

10. No, there's no "Vegetarian Special" on the menu. Order steak. Order it rare. Or, you can order the Chef's Salad and pick off the two pounds of ham and turkey.

11. Tea - yeah, we have tea. It comes in a glass over ice and is sweet. You want it hot - sit it in the sun. You want it unsweetened - add a lot of water.

12. You bring Coke into my house, it better be brown, wet, and served over ice.

13 . So you have a sixty thousand dollar car. We're real impressed. We have quarter of a million dollar combines that we use two weeks a year.

14. Let's get this straight. We have one stoplight in town. We stop when it's red. We may even stop when it's yellow.

15. Our women hunt, fish, and drive trucks - because they want to. So, you're a feminist. Isn't that cute?

16. We eat dinner together with our families, we pray before we eat (yeah, even breakfast), we go to church on Wednesdays and Sundays, we go to high school football games on Friday nights, we still address our seniors with 'yes sirs' and 'yes ma'ams', and we sometimes still take Sunday drives around town to see friends and neighbors.

17. We don't do "hurry up" well.

18. Greens - yeah, we have greens, but you don't putt on them. You boil them with either saltback or a ham hock.

19. Yeah, we eat catfish, bass, bream, and carp, too. You really want sushi and caviar? It's available at the bait shop.

20 . They are pigs. That's what they smell like. Get over it. Don't like it? Interstate 95 goes two ways! Interstate 40 goes the other two. Pick one.

21. Grits are corn. You put butter, salt, and pepper on them. You want to put milk and sugar on them - then you want cream of wheat - go to Kansas. That would be
I-40 West.

22. The "Opener" refers to the first day of deer season. It's a religious holiday. You can get breakfast at the church.

23. So every person in every pickup waves? Yeah, it's called being friendly. Understand the concept?

24. Yeah, we have golf courses. Don't hit in the water hazards. It spooks the fish - and if you hit it in the rough, we have these things called Diamondbacks, and they're not baseball players.

25. That Highway Patrol Officer that just pulled you over for driving like an idiot...his name is "Sir"...no matter how old he is.

26. We have lots of pine trees. They have sap. It drips from them. You park your Navigator under them, and they'll leave a logo on your hood.

27. You burn an American flag in our state - you get beat up. No questions. The liberal contingent of our state legislatures (all 4 of them) enacted a measure to stop this. There is now a $10 fine for beating the
person up.

Now, enjoy your visit... I emphasize - "VISIT"




Logged

Zxcv

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re:Best state to get a foothold in - and choosing the footholds.
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2003, 01:24:12 pm »

I think the disagreement between Joe and Irish can be explained.

Joe is correct, larger population cities correlate with more statism.

Irish is right, the more urban Idaho is less statist than Vermont.

The explanation is that there are multiple factors that influence statism. City populations are just one of them.

Idaho is a western state, and these states still have a reflection of the old days when people came out to be free. Idaho particularly has garnered a peculiar reputation that is likely to be off-putting to statist individuals. And finally, Idaho does have wide-open spaces even if it has more urban populations; their urban populations probably spend a lot of time out in the boonies, one reason they are in Idaho. So even if they have their city jobs they may philosophically be rural types to a large extent. And there is simple inertia; it may take a while for statism to build up.

All these factors contribute to whether people are statist or not, and apparently they overwhelm the fact that Idaho is more urban.

As to large city populations making FSP moot, I disagree, for these reasons.

1) We now know what people did not know in the 19th century, when some of these other cities were growing. We can guard against creeping statism, and impose legal and cultural barriers to it. It is a lot easier to prevent something happening like this, than to tear it down once it is established.

2) We can actively encourage freedom-seeking immigrants and discourage statists.

3) We will be working to reduce the influence of institutions that create statists, i.e. government schools.


Quote
Percentage of state population in cities of more than 13,000 people.
12%  Vermont  (71,995 of 608,827)
17%  Delaware  (133,346 of 783,600)...

Joe, can you explain this ranking to me? Is Delaware so low because Wilmington proper has a small population while the metropolitan area is large? We need a metropolitan area ranking that is more representative of whether the city is large or not. I know a hell of a lot more than 17% of people in Delaware live in big cities.

Also what is MSA, PMSA and CMSA?
Logged

TedApelt

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 117
  • Free 50 states - one at a time.
Re:Misconceptions by eastern city people about the West
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2003, 01:26:44 pm »

Ted,
I thought about starting a "Misconceptions about the East by Westerners but I figured it would best be done by somebody from the Eastern cities. Go for it. ;D

I just did.
Logged
How much political experience do you have?  Probably not enough.  Get some!  DO THIS NOW!!!

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5724
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re:Best state to get a foothold in - and choosing the footholds.
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2003, 01:54:13 pm »

The best measure is "Urb," the urbanization variable on the State Data page, taken from the 2000 Census figures.  It includes as urbanized population suburbs and other dense areas that are outside the city limits of large incorporated cities.
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 ... 18   Go Up