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Author Topic: Honesty about property taxes in NH  (Read 13861 times)

sj

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2009, 04:32:05 pm »

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Rights can only be infringed, not alienated.
They can be voluntarily alienated.

No.  Something is "alienated" from you by someone else's act, not your own voluntary act.

Joe

I just looked it up in the dictionary.  None of the four definitions said anything about alienation having to be from the act of a third person.
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MaineShark

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2009, 05:59:33 pm »

I just looked it up in the dictionary.  None of the four definitions said anything about alienation having to be from the act of a third person.

"The" dictionary is not a citation.  If you are going to claim that you just looked something up, supporting that with the actual reference would be helpful.

For example, the following is from Webster's:

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Alienate - transitive verb

1 : to make unfriendly, hostile, or indifferent especially where attachment formerly existed
2 : to convey or transfer (as property or a right) usually by a specific act rather than the due course of law
3 : to cause to be withdrawn or diverted
synonyms see estrange

And, of course, common usage is even stronger on the third-party aspect.  Ask someone on the street why "inalienable rights" are important, and nine times out of ten, you'll get an answer along the lines of "those are rights that no one can take away from you."

Joe
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 03:48:36 pm by sj »
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D. Stewart

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2009, 07:41:28 pm »

Ask someone on the street why "inalienable rights" are important, and nine times out of ten, you'll get an answer along the lines of "those are rights that no one can take away from you."

Unless the street is outside of NH, in which case four times out of ten you'll be ignored and five times you'll get a strange look.
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Gary T

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2009, 11:08:28 pm »


A location's value (not land area) is nothing more than the economic advantage the site natural accrues due to the location's proximity to the labor and services of others...this includes natural advantage (views) and socially created advantages (roads/schools/services).

If this natural advantage is collected by the locational owner it can only come at the expense of the labor of those excluded as they are forced to some other location that is not as "economically advantageous" as subjectively determined by those who are forced to locate there.

Well that's a very nice method of valuating a piece of property, and it may be useful when an owner decides to sell his property to another private buyer, but it should have NO place in determining what an owner's property tax should be.
Despite that that is the usual method used by statist minded civil servants in determining property taxes, a municipality is not in the business of renting out plots of land within its jurisdiction and basing those rents on whatever the market can bear, or what a property is worth on the private market.
From a services provider role, a municipality is a non-profit organization that provides common necessary utilities that support the residents of that locale; as such all it SHOULD be charging for in total is the exact amount it costs to provide those services, apportioned rationally to the respective residents.
It peeves me no end that tax assessors have the gumption of determining my annual property tax, not based on how much it costs the town to service me, but on a  paradigm of how much it looks like I can afford - i.e., prevailing market value worth, combined with a whole slew of subjective/arbitrary guesstimates that enhance such tax rates (e.g. A Cape style house vs a Contemporary or Ranch; whether I have a "nice" view of a mountain, or architectural shingles vs a tin roof; whether I live near a city, or anything else unrelated to the actual cost of providing me services).
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 11:18:41 pm by garyonthenet »
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WendellBerry

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2009, 11:44:53 pm »


A location's value (not land area) is nothing more than the economic advantage the site natural accrues due to the location's proximity to the labor and services of others...this includes natural advantage (views) and socially created advantages (roads/schools/services).

If this natural advantage is collected by the locational owner it can only come at the expense of the labor of those excluded as they are forced to some other location that is not as "economically advantageous" as subjectively determined by those who are forced to locate there.

Well that's a very nice method of valuating a piece of property, and it may be useful when an owner decides to sell his property to another private buyer, but it should have NO place in determining what an owner's property tax should be.
Despite that that is the usual method used by statist minded civil servants in determining property taxes, a municipality is not in the business of renting out plots of land within its jurisdiction and basing those rents on whatever the market can bear, or what a property is worth on the private market.
From a services provider role, a municipality is a non-profit organization that provides common necessary utilities that support the residents of that locale; as such all it SHOULD be charging for in total is the exact amount it costs to provide those services, apportioned rationally to the respective residents.
It peeves me no end that tax assessors have the gumption of determining my annual property tax, not based on how much it costs the town to service me, but on a  paradigm of how much it looks like I can afford - i.e., prevailing market value worth, combined with a whole slew of subjective/arbitrary guesstimates that enhance such tax rates (e.g. A Cape style house vs a Contemporary or Ranch; whether I have a "nice" view of a mountain, or architectural shingles vs a tin roof; whether I live near a city, or anything else unrelated to the actual cost of providing me services).

You are confusing personal utility value and market value.
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Gary T

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2009, 01:26:55 am »


Well that's a very nice method of valuating a piece of property, and it may be useful when an owner decides to sell his property to another private buyer, but it should have NO place in determining what an owner's property tax should be.
Despite that that is the usual method used by statist minded civil servants in determining property taxes, a municipality is not in the business of renting out plots of land within its jurisdiction and basing those rents on whatever the market can bear, or what a property is worth on the private market.
From a services provider role, a municipality is a non-profit organization that provides common necessary utilities that support the residents of that locale; as such all it SHOULD be charging for in total is the exact amount it costs to provide those services, apportioned rationally to the respective residents.
It peeves me no end that tax assessors have the gumption of determining my annual property tax, not based on how much it costs the town to service me, but on a  paradigm of how much it looks like I can afford - i.e., prevailing market value worth, combined with a whole slew of subjective/arbitrary guesstimates that enhance such tax rates (e.g. A Cape style house vs a Contemporary or Ranch; whether I have a "nice" view of a mountain, or architectural shingles vs a tin roof; whether I live near a city, or anything else unrelated to the actual cost of providing me services).

You are confusing personal utility value and market value.

You are confusing the context, and meaning therein, of what I am talking about.
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Moving_on_up

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2009, 07:01:09 pm »

Nothing gets my blood boiling than to hear about property taxes.  In NC, people who have called this State home for 30 yrs are being driven out of their homes through property, gas, and sales taxes.  The rich Yankee liberal transplants who taxed themselves out of NJ, RI, MA etc are now finding heaven in NC.  Unfortunately, these scumbags still vote liberal.  Ignorance is so costly!  Now, on a $300,000 home in Durham, NC, you can expect to pay $400 per month.  It is higher in Chapel Hill, NC (home of the #1 ranked Tarheels, Go Heels) !   The odious tax assessor appraise land values higher every eight years or so!  In Greensboro, my mother in law pays $150 per month for a $184,000 home!!!  I told her that is $150 too much, and we should move to NH where we can change things.  ...the cold, the cold...  I urge the FSP in NH to change the tax laws there so there are NO taxes of ANY kind period, only voluntary donations to the State. 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 11:13:01 pm by Moving_on_up »
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Luck

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2009, 07:14:09 pm »

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NO taxes of ANY kind period, only voluntary donations to the State
* That's my thinking too. And I'm not just a thinker; I intend to do all I can to manifest that asap.
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Dreepa

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2009, 09:14:10 pm »

I urge the FSP in NH to change the tax laws there so there are NO taxes of ANY kind period, only voluntary donations to the State. 
The FSP won't do anything...but movers will and it will need many movers and NATIVES to lower taxes.  It will be quite some time before we see NO taxes.
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sonio

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2009, 09:29:41 pm »

The oly point of the FSP is to get liberty minded people up to NH.

Political decisions and affiliations are up to the liberty minded people, not the FSP.

 ;D
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Moving_on_up

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2009, 10:54:21 pm »



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NO taxes of ANY kind period, only voluntary donations to the State
* That's my thinking too. And I'm not just a thinker; I intend to do all I can to manifest that asap.

God willing, in addition to NO TAXES, how about no speed limit, no zoning, no EPA, no Departments of any kind.  No Welfare. No government schools.  Fire 95% of the government employees.  Just FREEDOM!!  I see me pumping gas with a side arm showing.    8)  I agree the FSP is just a brand name, it is conservatism that is the sole of the movement.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 11:18:07 pm by Moving_on_up »
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lloydbob1

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2009, 05:50:53 am »


  I see me pumping gas with a side arm showing.   

You can already do that.
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Luck

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2009, 08:36:47 am »

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no zoning, no EPA, no Departments of any kind.  No Welfare. No government schools.  Fire 95% of the government employees
* I agree, but the people can and probably should organize non-authoritarianly to provide each other needed services.
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nemosgypsy

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2009, 11:21:20 pm »

   Being away from NH I have learned a few things about taxes, including property taxes. NH has absorbent property taxes in some parts of the state, if not all and I am wondering if the FSP is informing people who are moving from out of state about these property taxes.

Thank you for your post.  I'm not trying to attack you so please don't take this as a personal attack.  My thoughts follow.

The FSP is just a bus to move people to NH.  It doesn't really info people about that many things except for the statement of intent and a few other things.

Individual members of the FSP however, do inform folks.  No one is trying to pretend that NH is perfect.  For example. Manchester, NH was just rated the 2nd lowest taxed city in the nation.  A city in AK was rated the lowest.  So we are well aware that NH doesn't have the lowest taxes overall.  Heck, there are parts of AK without income, sales, or property taxes and member you are paid to live there.

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I know of many families who moved away from NH so that they could purchase an affordable house with little to no property tax.


That's one way to do it.  Another way is to work to lower the property taxes.  As you know, the voters of most towns have huge influence on what the tax rates are as the help set the budget.  However, I recommend families do whatever they think is best. 

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Yes other states have income and sales tax both or one of the other, so where does NH get its money? From high property tax that's where.

That is more or less true.  Most states have both a state income and a state sales tax.  NH has a bunch of minor taxes and high property taxes.  Of course, almost all towns outside of NH also have property taxes.  In fact, in some areas, the property taxes are even higher than in NH.  For example, not only do properties in Boston cost much more than NH (plus residents have to pay income and sales tax), but the property taxes are also higher.  People in NJ tend to also pay higher property taxes.  Many people in NY, RI, CT, VT, ME, and OR also pay higher property taxes.  While people in CA tend not to have high property taxes, there are a ton of minor taxes and the income and sales taxes can get over 10% in some areas.

On the other hand, the town I live in is much different.  Much of the taxes in my town are paid for by companies and not individual property taxes.  So even in NH, things may vary greatly from town to town. 

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    A friend of mine purchased a farm house in rural Wear NH, the property tax was 1,500 a year. Her and her husband renovated the house with their own time and money, to make it their own. One day the tax assessor man came, a wolf in sheep's clothing, saw their efforts, naive husband proud of his work, and the tax man well he increased their property tax from 1,500 a year to a whopping 6,000 a year.


Pristine houses tend to be worth more than dilapidated buildings.  Subsequently, people owning them tend to have higher property tax bills.  In this way, many towns seem to reward people who don't keep their house in good condition with lower property tax bills.  Of course, you can always fight a property tax bill.  It may be even more effective to get to the route of the problem, the out of control spending in some of the towns.

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If you are inticing people to come because NH has no income or sales tax, you should also inform them of the high property taxes, no public transportation (if you do not have reliable transportation or a drivers license you are in a bad situation the winters are rough and NH is rura
l), poor education, awful health care etc.

I am enticing people to move to NH as part of the Free State Project.  I understand that no state is perfect or will become perfect with a snap of my fingers.  The FSP members looked at 10 states to see which was the best for the project.  We then voted and NH was selected.

About the issues you bring up, though.

NH has the 2nd lowest overall taxes.
NH has public transportation in several areas including Manchester and the Seacoast.
NH (and New England in general) tends to lead the nation in education.
NH has one of the healthiest populations in the nation (I thing 2nd) and has one of the top hospitals in the nation.

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     My family owns property in NH and it's not the greatest, we pay 1,600 a year and there have been many a year we had to break the bank to cover heating and property taxes, mortgage etc. I am against sales and income tax however I am just keeping it honest, because prospective movers might not expect all this when they come.


All of the facts are out there.  There is a massive FSP website full of tons of info.  There are welcome wagon folks to answer all questions.  There is this forum where people are encouraged to ask questions.  There is even a prospective participants sub forum, as you know since we are posting on it.  No one is trying to hide anything.

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If they have large sums of money, income well, it doesn't matter I suppose. NH is the sixth richest state in the country, but there is many an old money and those who will keep it that way, all I am saying is people from other states may have difficulty gaining footing, and I must again emphasize reliable transportation, your cars will rust, your engines will stall your gas lines will freeze, 4wheel drive, snow tires a must. NH is rough living indeed but builds character, that I will never regret.

Through criagslist, classified ads, and porcmanor.com people are able to move to NH and rent rooms from $300-$700 per month, all over the state.  NH isn't a very expensive state to live in (much cheaper than MA, CA, AK, HI, CT, RI, NY, NJ for most people).  You can buy a house for under $150,000 in most of the state.  You can buy a 2 bedroom condo in Concord for less than $70,000 (I know, my friend has one).

I agree that reliable transportation is needed if you don't live in one of the dozens of towns or cities (Keene, Manchester, Derry, Portsmouth. Dover, Seabrook, Newport, Berlin, Concord, Hampton. Hampton Falls, Exeter...) where it is easy enough to walk around from certain areas.  My engine didn't stall and my gasline didn't freeze this winter.  However, it only got -4 or so where I live at the coldest.  I understand it gets down to -30 or so from time to time, depending on where you live.  Of course, if you are worried, you can get a vehicle which is plugged in at night.  I don't have 4 wheel drive or snow tires.  I think they are useful; however, they are usually not needed - it depends on your driving habits.

Overall, I agree with you.  While the government of NH is smaller than most and leaves you alone more than most, NH has more nature induced problems than some other areas of the nation.  While NH isn't as wild as AK, WY, MT, ND, SD, VT, or ME, it does have obstacles and changing weather which should be planned for.  NH is far from perfect, but it seems damn good to me!

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nemosgypsy

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Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2009, 11:30:20 pm »

No offense taken, it's been an intriguing debate that somehow got lost in semantics. Take care of NH she has been in my family since the 1800's.
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