Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: 2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: Wyoming not the place, not independent enough  (Read 15325 times)

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: Don't Come Here!!
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2003, 03:17:42 am »

What no one seems to notice is that, if someone is willing to shoot you for intending to come in as a Majority and thereby change the Laws, he will equally shoot you for intending to come in and convince enough of his NEIGHBORS to change the Laws.  Doing it Gradually will not be more calming to him than doing it right off.

On what do you base that conclusion?  

Majority "move-in-and-take-over" scenarios are hardly the same as winning over additional support to create a majority.  If what you say is true, then the state would already be a bloodbath in progress and no one would dare campaign at all.

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: Don't Come Here!!
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2003, 04:41:19 am »

What no one seems to notice is that, if someone is willing to shoot you for intending to come in as a Majority and thereby change the Laws, he will equally shoot you for intending to come in and convince enough of his NEIGHBORS to change the Laws.  Doing it Gradually will not be more calming to him than doing it right off.

On what do you base that conclusion?  

Majority "move-in-and-take-over" scenarios are hardly the same as winning over additional support to create a majority.


From the viewpoint of the person who is NOT won over, there is absolutely no difference.  He does not care if it's 100,000 new residents or 100,000 current residents who are voting for what he feels justified in killing for.

And as for going S L O O O W W:
Would you feel better if you were for whatever reason powerless to avoid being inexorably run over by an automobile traveling at the rate of 1 foot per minute, or 50 miles per hour?

Logged

George Reich

  • FSP Participant
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
  • I just *love* it when Hank and Dagny brainstorm!
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "it's a great idea"
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2003, 06:52:28 am »

I am not going to respond to anymore of your posts in this thread unless you change the thread title.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Logged
If everyone were rich there would be no need for government assistance. If everyone were rich all children could attend private schools. If everyone were rich, government would become superfluous. Read the free e-book at this site:

http://www.scienceofgettingrich.net

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: Don't Come Here!!
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2003, 07:06:50 am »

From the viewpoint of the person who is NOT won over, there is absolutely no difference.

Putting myself into the place of a person who had a choice as to whether a bunch of outsiders moved in all at once and changed my way of life suddenly, or if a smaller number came in and convinced a majority of my neighbors to their views gradually, yes, I absolutely would see a difference.

Quote
He does not care if it's 100,000 new residents or 100,000 current residents who are voting for what he feels justified in killing for.

You're blowing this thing way out of proportion for starters.  And then, even if you want to continue the tangent, the comments that you're complaining about dealt exclusively with "take-over" scenarios.  Wyoming Rancher actually said that most people he knew would probably support us, it was the attitude that mattered to him.  So, again, yes, there most certainly is a difference.

Quote
And as for going S L O O O W W:
Would you feel better if you were for whatever reason powerless to avoid being inexorably run over by an automobile traveling at the rate of 1 foot per minute, or 50 miles per hour?

You've just described the present political situation at work throughout this entire country: the liberty-oriented are being slowly run over by a statist machine.  But the good thing about a slow moving machine is that you have more of a chance to evade it instead of being crushed as it speeds through.  That's why people are interested in the FSP: it's an evasive manuever designed to avoid that slow moving statist steamroller.

Let me put it this way:  would the reaction of liberty-loving folks be different if the federal government suddenly eliminated freedoms all across the board tomorrow, or if it merely continued its gradual encroachments?  You know that it would be.  Liberty-loving Americans would be driven into revolution by the first scenario, whereas, in the second, they'd do things like the FSP instead.

If my way of life is going to change, most of the time I'd prefer that it happen slowly.  If those who disagree with us find that they are being outvoted by those who do agree with us, then the speed with which our ideology is spreading will give them time to get out of its way, if they so choose.  And it least they won't be able to polarize opposition against us on the basis of a threat to life "down home" because numerous members of their own "down home" family will be part of it.

There's a world of differences here.

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: Don't Come Here!!
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2003, 08:01:52 am »


  .... Wyoming Rancher actually said that most people he knew would probably support us, it was the attitude that mattered to him.


No, Hank and WyoRancher said they would NOT support anyone who was going to repeal their Victimless Crime Laws.
They say that they will support those who are happy to come in and "fit in" and enjoy the many Freedoms that Wyoming already has.  They will NOT accept additional Freedoms, though.  They don't see a problem; the Freedoms they have now are all they think anyone needs.

Logged

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: Don't Come Here!!
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2003, 09:11:47 am »

They don't see a problem; the Freedoms they have now are all they think anyone needs.

C'mon now, Zack, go back and re-read those posts.  Wyoming Rancher specifically commented on the problems that Cheyenne poses to Wyomingites, for one example.  

Yes, they're very proud of their state's level of freedom, and they have every right to be, but I think their comments also indicate a willingness to do more.  Why else would they say that most Wyomingites would probably agree with us when our agenda is one of change - if they don't believe they need any changes made, that is?

jgmaynard

  • FSP Shadow Advertising
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2288
    • The Light of Alexandria
NH needs the FSP
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2003, 09:55:31 am »

To respond to the following feelings:

"If people in NH are so unanimous about us, then what do they need us for? They can fix their own problems themselves!"    
 
"They've certainly done a better job of it than any other state in the country, in my opinion.  They don't need us, you're right."

We WILL have a powerful Libertarian caucus in the state house very soon, FSP or not. BUT with the FSP, we could have a majority in just a few years.

To pass much of a Libertarian agenda, no, we could do it anyway. But to assure that a Libertarian agenda is passed at state and city/town level as well as state en masse, we DO need the FSP.

We have the car going. We can get it to 60 MPH by ourselves, but to win the Indy 500, we need the "super fuel" of the FSP.

We're going to make much progress over the next few years, but with the FSP, we will be king of the jungle pretty quickly...

Logged
The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard

A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today.



http://www.lightofalexandria.com

Rearden

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 748
  • We're supposed to be activists, remember?
    • Free State Project
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "it's a great idea"
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2003, 09:57:17 am »


Keith,

I am not going to respond to anymore of your posts in this thread unless you change the thread title.

1. Dave never said what you quote him as saying.

2. Keith, even after you try to quote Dave for something he did not say, you add more emphasis by adding exclamation points .

3. On top of that, Dave did say that the FSP would work in Wyoming.

I feel you are misrepresenting Dave and you are willfully trying to mislead the FSP membership with this thread.  After you make the above CORRECTIONS, yes, they would be corrections, I'll be glad to continue to discuss related and non-related issues with you, in this thread.

I am not a sheep nor a lama and I will not be played.

On a side note, I love your first name, as it reminds me of my own :)

Keith,

First you wanted me to drop the quotation marks, due to my paraphrase.  I did so.  Now you insist that I change the title of the thread entirely, and accuse me of misrepresenting Dave Dawson's sentiments.

Fine, I will change it, and put in exactly what the article said, just to clear up any confusion in the minds of those who can't be bothered to read the article.  Just don't blame me for the lengthy thread title.  

I have to say that I resent the charge of misrepresentation and attempting to willfully mislead the FSP membership.  The 2002 LP Gov candidate essentially said that his state would be a poor choice for the FSP.  He said it.  Shortening that to: Don't come here!  is hardly misrepresentation or misleading.  The exclamation points are there due to my surprise in seeing this, as Wyoming until now was my favorite western state, number two overall just behind New Hampshire.  
Logged
Government can do only one thing: It can break your legs, hand you a crutch, and say, "See?  If not for the government you couldn't walk."

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: Don't Come Here!!
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2003, 10:16:30 am »


  ... I think their comments also indicate a willingness to do more.  Why else would they say that most Wyomingites would probably agree with us when our agenda is one of change - if they don't believe they need any changes made, that is?


Hank stated that he is unalterably opposed to the legalization of drugs, and so are most other Wyomingites.
I'm willing to take him at his word.

Logged

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "it's a great idea"
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2003, 10:33:11 am »



Keith,

First you wanted me to drop the quotation marks, due to my paraphrase.  I did so.  Now you insist that I change the title of the thread entirely, and accuse me of misrepresenting Dave Dawson's sentiments.

Fine, I will change it, and put in exactly what the article said, just to clear up any confusion in the minds of those who can't be bothered to read the article.  Just don't blame me for the lengthy thread title.  

I have to say that I resent the charge of misrepresentation and attempting to willfully mislead the FSP membership.  The 2002 LP Gov candidate essentially said that his state would be a poor choice for the FSP.  He said it.  Shortening that to: Don't come here!  is hardly misrepresentation or misleading.  The exclamation points are there due to my surprise in seeing this, as Wyoming until now was my favorite western state, number two overall just behind New Hampshire.  


Keith, I thank you for making those changes.  I deleted the post that you just quoted, since you made the changes.  

However, I complete disagree with what you just said.  I think Dave said that the FSP would work in Wyoming.  However, the way some reports work, it is hard to tell what anyone says.  

I remember when some reporter tried to make it look like Harry Browne thought the FSP was a bad idea.  Several of us talked with Harry Browne, and he said he liked the idea.

Anyway, at this point we are just in honest disagreement, no big deal.
Logged

Hank

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 334
  • "The Men That Don't Fit In"

Zack just made this statement:
Quote
Hank stated that he is unalterably opposed to the legalization of drugs, and so are most other Wyomingites. I'm willing to take him at his word.
Zack, you again lie.
I wrote:
Quote
We don't want drug pushers (pushing more than marijuana or codeine).
You also choose to ignore what I've previously written
and which you responded to. See this following thread.
Drugs that should be available over the counter.
AND there is yet another lie before that when you said:
Quote
No, Hank and WyoRancher said they would NOT support anyone who was going to repeal their Victimless Crime Laws.
They say that they will support those who are happy to come in and "fit in" and enjoy the many Freedoms that Wyoming already has.  They will NOT accept additional Freedoms, though.  They don't see a problem; the Freedoms they have now are all they think anyone needs.
Other posters here who've read what was said know very well that what we object to is your repeated threat of a hostile takeover. We support repealing those laws. We do NOT support arrogant outsiders coming in and taking over in spite of our views (which support the FSP by the way -- another fact Zack refuses to quote). But back to the lie about our stand on drugs...

I've no problem with marijuana or other mild drugs.
But heroin pushers I do have a problem with.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2003, 04:23:54 pm by Black Hills Hank »
Logged
There's A race of men that don't fit in,
A race that can't stay still;
So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
And they roam the world at will.
http://www.internal.org/view_poem.phtml?poemID=295

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "it's a great idea"
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2003, 10:36:54 am »

I am not going to respond to anymore of your posts in this thread unless you change the thread title.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Thank you for being so blunt.  I hope that type of talk is not what you call "friendly" as your sig file suggests.  Keith made the changes and I am again posting to this thread.  I do not even see why you replied to my post, anyway.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2003, 10:37:29 am by FreedomRoad »
Logged

Zack Bass

  • Guest


Zack just made this statement:
Quote
Hank stated that he is unalterably opposed to the legalization of drugs, and so are most other Wyomingites. I'm willing to take him at his word.
Zack, you again lie.
  ....
I've no problem with marijuana or the other milder drugs.
But heroin pushers I do have a problem with.


Like I said.

Logged

George Reich

  • FSP Participant
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
  • I just *love* it when Hank and Dagny brainstorm!
Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "it's a great idea"
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2003, 12:02:36 pm »

I am not going to respond to anymore of your posts in this thread unless you change the thread title.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Thank you for being so blunt.  I hope that type of talk is not what you call "friendly" as your sig file suggests.  Keith made the changes and I am again posting to this thread.  I do not even see why you replied to my post, anyway.

I have a dry sense of humor.  ;)
Logged
If everyone were rich there would be no need for government assistance. If everyone were rich all children could attend private schools. If everyone were rich, government would become superfluous. Read the free e-book at this site:

http://www.scienceofgettingrich.net

Zack Bass

  • Guest


If there really is an extra 20% (a hundred thousand) independent Wyoming people but they are not voting, then that presents a problem for Wyoming just as it presents a problem for me here. I've talked with far too many people here who are adamant about their rights and are against government regulations. But they are not registered voters! Thus their signature on my petition to run for office doesn't count! My compatriots' opposition gets their people to vote but our people stay home. Our liberty-minded candidates lose!
Avoiding databases is also a problem for the FSP. The overwhelming majority of Wyoming people may be very independent. But their independence doesn't show up in the statistics we must rely upon but which WyoRancher discounts. He may have a good reason for discounting those stats if so many independents are not in those statistics.
  ....
Does Wyoming have another set of books for independent people? Is there a way we can measure that independence? Will those independent people vote in support of repeals of onerous laws? Or will they be staying home while the Californicaters from Denver outvote them -- such as passing statewide building codes -- which just happened this year!!!!!!
Dang it all!  Sometimes independents have to stand up and be counted so that they can be counted upon by their friends who need their support -- at the voting booths!


If this is the case, then Wyoming may well be our best bet despite a few who will shoot at us (I'll just have to get me a .50-cal. Maadi-Griffin and throw away my SKS).  We may be exactly what these people will consider worth stepping up to the voting booth for.  Whatever they are hiding from, I bet our success will free them from it.  And we can convince them of that.  There is no other State where we can actually convert a significant number of people from within the State.

Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up