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Author Topic: NH Voters are New and Blue  (Read 14471 times)

anon37268573

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NH Voters are New and Blue
« on: November 04, 2008, 06:24:35 pm »

Concord Monitor:

"The traditional stereotype of the New Hampshire voter as an old Republican Yankee is growing less true-to-life by the year, according to a study by three University of New Hampshire professors. They calculate that about one-third of the adult population eligible to vote today couldn't vote here or didn't live here in 2000 - and, they say, a majority of those folks lean toward Democrats."

Full Article:

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081104/FRONTPAGE/811040305


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Dreepa

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 05:10:33 pm »

It is from the Monitor... so take it with a grain of salt.  Monitor is not very 'fair and balanced'
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margomaps

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2008, 06:42:26 pm »

It is from the Monitor... so take it with a grain of salt.  Monitor is not very 'fair and balanced'

I'll agree that the Monitor isn't fair and balanced.  But the study was done by researchers at the Carsey Institute at UNH:

http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2008/oct/bp15granite.cfm

Of course, one could argue that UNH, or the Carsey Institute, or the particular researchers involved aren't fair and balanced either, but the report itself looks like unbiased research to me.  Certainly the results of the last two state election cycles seem to agree with the analysis.
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Ren

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2008, 11:36:36 pm »

HI

I've been hearing all day on certain news programs that the shift to Democratic isn't that people are necessarily moving more to the left, as much as  a protest vote against anything Republican.  So, time will tell how future elections will go...
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JasonPSorens

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2008, 11:42:10 pm »

NH has definitely moved ideologically to the left over the last 15 years. It's not just a protest against the Bush Admin, as this graph shows:


You can also see that the trend line seems to be slowing down. The state will probably stabilize at +3 or +4 Democratic compared to the rest of the country, comparable to Pennsylvania or Wisconsin.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Ren

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2008, 02:05:51 am »

Just repeating what I heard...  This wasn't about NH per se, but a country shift thought to be brought on by the Republican dismay...

An approach for the FSP might  be to also try to reach democrats, (not just republicans), who also love their freedoms, like my daughter.  She's probably a left leaning libertarian (she's always putting down the gov't for stupid drug laws, gun control laws, etc., etc), but as much as she wants more freedom, she doesn't vote Republican, cause of their conservative social agenda.  Problem is she is in favor of a national health care plan, as she can't afford to go to the doctor or dentist without going into debt and is for millionaires to pay more in taxes (not the $250,000 and above people), to help relieve the middle class.  But those are national issues.  If you can reach people like her on statewide personal freedom issue, you may have a lot of converts.   I figure there are others out there who are similar to her that might like the idea of the FSP.  I have brought it up to her, and she actually identifies with what you are trying to do and what the state offers. Enough to move there, not yet, but it is a seed.     

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J’raxis 270145

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2008, 02:46:19 am »

An approach for the FSP might  be to also try to reach democrats, (not just republicans), who also love their freedoms, …

+1
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Fishercat

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2008, 08:53:46 am »

Problem is she is in favor of a national health care plan, as she can't afford to go to the doctor or dentist without going into debt and is for millionaires to pay more in taxes (not the $250,000 and above people), to help relieve the middle class.  But those are national issues.  If you can reach people like her on statewide personal freedom issue, you may have a lot of converts. 

Since I'm in NH, my experience is with talking to NH people.   But I think some of this applies.

What I have found, speaking to Democrats at the polls, is a similar wall but with Public School funding issues.  Also, to a lesser extent, there is a strong support for things like minimum wage, housing/heating assistance - and just a general issue of "fairness" built around the idea that it is good to steal from the rich/businesses to give to the poor/workers.  These are all local/state issues.

I was actually told "I actually agree with the Republicans on fiscal issues" by a person carrying the Democratic signs at the polls.   But I think one or more of the above issues often become deal-killers.   In this case, if I had talked about how I really feel about education funding, I'm sure I would have lost all support.

I would think it would be a little easier when talking about the college-aged or 20s crowd.   But for those who are older, and identify themselves as democrats - this is my impression.
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margomaps

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2008, 09:35:27 am »

What I have found, speaking to Democrats at the polls, is a similar wall but with Public School funding issues.  Also, to a lesser extent, there is a strong support for things like minimum wage, housing/heating assistance - and just a general issue of "fairness" built around the idea that it is good to steal from the rich/businesses to give to the poor/workers.  These are all local/state issues.

Unfortunately, public school funding is becoming a huge a wedge issue.  The wedge ends up causing otherwise fiscally conservative Democrats to carry the blue-team's banner for income/sales taxes, greater state control of local schools, and other things.  Those on the other side of the wedge are smaller government, local-control of education types, including homeschoolers.  The two sides dig in their heels, and before long you have each side in stubborn opposition to whatever the other side stands for, such as fiscally conservative Democrats railing against peripheral issues like homeschooling.  I think this is mainly because of the "us vs them" mentality.

It's a mess.   :-\
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WendellBerry

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2008, 09:36:10 am »

Quote
just a general issue of "fairness" built around the idea that it is good to steal from the rich/businesses to give to the poor/workers.

Left-libertarianism's analysis is that the state is used by the rich/business to protect them from market forces to insure their profits. So reform of the state should happen from the top down before social services are cut.

The state breaks legs and then hands out crutches to the poor. Rather than harping about pulling crutches away we should get the state to stop breaking legs first. This would resonate wildly with young and old alike.
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Ren

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2008, 01:27:41 pm »

 

I know there are some major differences between Dems and Repub, but what I am suggesting is to possibly reach the young and old on some of the issues that are important to them that have a liberty type bent.

In reading a chapter in a political science book the other day on the political parties, it said something interesting.  That instead of looking at the parties in a straight line, (democrat - republican - libertarian) to rather view them as a circle, with libertarian connecting around to democrat.  It basically said that many of the libertarian platforms are similar to what the democrats want (liberalism) and many are similar to republican (conservative).  Whether you go along with that or not, I thought it was interesting.  So, with that in mind, I thought it would be a good idea to reach some of the democrats with some of the liberty issues they like.  If democratic is the way the country and NH is turning, then why not try to use it to the FSP's advantage.  It's the small incremental steps that will lead to the larger ones. 

Why not have some of the future candidates run as Democrats, instead of Republicans.  If you can't beat em join em!!  The idea here is to win.  Who cares what the label is called.  Once in, you're in and have a much better chance of re-election.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 01:33:25 pm by Ren »
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JasonPSorens

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2008, 01:39:18 pm »



Why not have some of the future candidates run as Democrats, instead of Republicans.  If you can't beat em join em!!  The idea here is to win.  Who cares what the label is called.  Once in, you're in and have a much better chance of re-election.


I absolutely agree.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

K. Darien Freeheart

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2008, 01:40:25 pm »

It sometimes annoys me how frequently I see even liberty-minded folks act as if liberty is an extension of Republicanism. I think everyone has some biases, admittedly but it seems I see the Republican ones more often (The NHLA, for instance tends to avoid the liberty issues that can be attached to the "liberal" platform). Take a look at the number of people who seem to think that Obama winning the state is a sign of evil, but wouldn't feel the same way if the votes had been roughly 50% in favor of McCain (who is essentially the same).

I sincerely hope that there's more pro-liberty outreach to liberals in the coming years. I know it's something I'm certainly going to be focusing on since it was the progression I took.
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WendellBerry

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2008, 01:43:28 pm »



I know there are some major differences between Dems and Repub, but what I am suggesting is to possibly reach the young and old on some of the issues that are important to them that have a liberty type bent.

In reading a chapter in a political science book the other day on the political parties, it said something interesting.  That instead of looking at the parties in a straight line, (democrat - republican - libertarian) to rather view them as a circle, with libertarian connecting around to democrat.  It basically said that many of the libertarian platforms are similar to what the democrats want (liberalism) and many are similar to republican (conservative).  Whether you go along with that or not, I thought it was interesting.  So, with that in mind, I thought it would be a good idea to reach some of the democrats with some of the liberty issues they like.  If democratic is the way the country and NH is turning, then why not try to use it to the FSP's advantage.  It's the small incremental steps that will lead to the larger ones. 

Why not have some of the future candidates run as Democrats, instead of Republicans.  If you can't beat em join em!!  The idea here is to win.  Who cares what the label is called.  Once in, you're in and have a much better chance of re-election.



In some ways it was the Democratic victories in the western mountain states (Colorado, etc) that gave Obama his decisive victory and these states fall under the new fusionist attempts to unite liberals and libertarians by breaking libertarians away from the conservative movement.

The way to reach them is via left-libertarianism which doesn't believe that equality has to be traded off for liberty and is more concerned with distributive justice in the classical liberal sense - 3 factor (land, labor & capital) production & distribution system - as a moral inquiring (political economy) rather than right-libertarians emphasis on corrective justice - 2 factor (labor vs. capital) production & distribution system (neo-classical) where "like kinds" are voluntarily traded amorally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Libertarianism

explanation of distributive vs. corrective justice:

http://distributism.blogspot.com/2008/07/review-of-vocation-of-business.html

The central question of the book is the relationship between justice
and economics. Médaille begins with the argument that these cannot be
opposed to each other nor can they be identical, as if economic
structures and activities operated justly according to some divine or
natural law. Justice must be intentionally embodied in social
institutions and only will be when it is recognized that the so-
called laws of economics do not operate in the same way as the laws
of physics. Human freedom and experience are involved, and,
therefore, a moral theory is legitimate and necessary but only when
it begins with the recognition that the human person is a social
being with a particular telos. From this telos is derived a sense
of "oughtness," that essential moral notion, lost in the aftermath of
the Enlightenment, that must inform the economic order, just as it
should the political, legal, and cultural dimensions of human living .

With this established, Médaille proceeds to his critique. He starts
by distilling the historical development of economic thought from
Aristotle to Aquinas, from Smith and Ricardo, to Malthus, Say, and
Senior. The unity of justice and economics started to fray with the
emergence of the new mercantilist class in the sixteenth century and
the individualist notions of being human that characterized the
Enlightenment project. The Scholastic synthesis of Aristotle's theory
of the unity of distributive and corrective justice lost its foothold
soon after. A new principle emerged from the effort to ground all
reasoning in a natural order—the pursuit of monetary wealth for its
own sake leading to the discoveries of Adam Smith. Classical
economics was born .

Smith's failure to arrive at a theory that would unify distributive
justice (Smith's Labor Theory of Value) and corrective justice (the
famous Invisible Hand) led to a fragmentation of economic thought as
subsequent theorists emphasized one or the other principle. Into the
void marched utilitarian economic theories, which called for a
radical divorce between ethics and economics in order to ground
economics in the more objective world of science. This set the stage
for the final sundering of justice and economics: the discovery that
it was not utility per se but marginal utility that provided the
rationale for establishing price and legitimating profits .

In Médaille's account, the ultimate villain is John Bates Clark. In
The Distribution of Wealth (1899), Clark solved the problem that had
plagued marginal utility theory: how to treat the three factors of
classical economics—land, capital, and labor—under the same
mathematical formulae .Clark proved that all income—wages, profits,
and rents—originate in the same natural law that governs economics by
positing an abstraction known as capital without reference to any
actual physical content. Clark argued that these productive factors,
when left undisturbed, will always return to the productive agent the
exact value of that which he created .

Médaille maintains that Clark's solution required him to divorce
economic theory from reality .There were no longer actual men with
shovels but a mathematical abstraction that could be fit neatly into
formulae without regard for any concrete notion of the good. This is
what permitted Clark and others to ignore the fact that the critical
factor in arriving at prosperity is not capital, but labor, and that
the linchpin of a rightly ordered economic system is the just wage.
The principles of neoclassical economics have reduced our notions of
economic justice to a narrow utilitarian concern for exchanges
mediated only by money and price .

Having offered a diagnosis of the malady, Médaille also proposes a
cure. After grounding his analysis in Catholic social teaching, he
invokes the economic theory of distributism, whose best known
advocates were Hillaire Belloc and G. K. Chesterton. In the classic
text for this theory, Economics for Helen, Belloc argues that the
factor that controls all others in any political economy is the
distribution of property and further that justice in exchange relies
on a certain level of distributive justice prior to any transaction.
Contrary to neoclassical assumptions, equity in the ownership of
property must precede economic equilibrium because, in truth, it is
the only way to achieve it .

Proof that this theory works in practice is offered through a
detailed analysis of the experience of Taiwan, the success of micro-
banking in Bangladesh and the example of the Mondragón Cooperative
Corporation in Spain. Médaille rounds out his proposal with an
analysis of the just wage and the benefits of building an authentic
ownership society, but his fundamental argument is that wealth is
created through the interaction of two sources: the gifts of the
earth and human labor. Capital is inert without the intelligence and
creative capacity of human persons; justice cannot be achieved by
pretending otherwise .

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WendellBerry

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Re: NH Voters are New and Blue
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2008, 01:51:33 pm »

It sometimes annoys me how frequently I see even liberty-minded folks act as if liberty is an extension of Republicanism. I think everyone has some biases, admittedly but it seems I see the Republican ones more often (The NHLA, for instance tends to avoid the liberty issues that can be attached to the "liberal" platform). Take a look at the number of people who seem to think that Obama winning the state is a sign of evil, but wouldn't feel the same way if the votes had been roughly 50% in favor of McCain (who is essentially the same).

I sincerely hope that there's more pro-liberty outreach to liberals in the coming years. I know it's something I'm certainly going to be focusing on since it was the progression I took.

Well libertarians have been the third wheel in the fusionist strategy of the modern conservative movement since the mid-50s.

The only way to make inroads though with the left is to have a substantive view of issues of "economic justice" within a negative liberty framework. The neo-classical view of economics (Austrian school) just can't get you there because they are only concerned with corrective justice (trading like kinds) within an amoral study of the "science" of economics.

Only left-libertarianism will get you there because they a looking at the classical liberal position called "political economy" a moral and ethical study of distributive justice (who and under what conditions and obligations get access to the natural and social commons).
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 01:53:25 pm by WendellBerry »
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