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[lloydbob1]

YEA,Skypod
Lloyd

[SBottari]

That Ubik guy is amusing.  Is he really in his forties?  I mean, with his writing style - it looks like it comes from a teenage IRC script kiddie* that thinks he knows everything.  I'm in the tech industry in the lower end, but I have a job because I'm intelligent and can at least articulate myself to customers.  If he's some kind of disgruntled sysadmin that just sat on IRC all day, that could explain his behavior and lack of a job also.  But, really - this guy's a riot.



* = Typically a 13-year-old male that sits and runs scripts (small programs, written in a few minutes) on Internet Relay Chat (IRC) to mess with the internet or serve illegally copied porn, software, or videos.    

[larry]

Uhh, Folks,

"necessary social programs"?   WTF are they?

Now, it's true, it ain't a good idea to walk into the room
and yank the needle out of the junkies arm.

But, in relation to government, we couldn't do that, as much
as we might like too.

It's a step at a time, or it's nothing.

But necessary government programs??  I've never seen evidence for that claim.

In fact, old man that I am, I ain't even going back to read the
supposed validation for "necessary gummint programs".

I ain't even convinced gummit is necessary, after thirty-years
of studying the question.

Uhh, Folks, it's true, Jason's big tent as turned over a bigtime
rock.   Maybe for good?    And maybe not.

libertarian larry

 













 

That Ubik guy is amusing.  Is he really in his forties?  I mean, with his writing style - it looks like it comes from a teenage IRC script kiddie* that thinks he knows everything.  I'm in the tech industry in the lower end, but I have a job because I'm intelligent and can at least articulate myself to customers.  If he's some kind of disgruntled sysadmin that just sat on IRC all day, that could explain his behavior and lack of a job also.  But, really - this guy's a riot.



* = Typically a 13-year-old male that sits and runs scripts (small programs, written in a few minutes) on Internet Relay Chat (IRC) to mess with the internet or serve illegally copied porn, software, or videos.    

[spiteface]

this guy wants to perpetuate non-democratic rule and u complained about my style of typing?  

I'm just wondering which section of our Constitution perpetuates democratic rule??  It really is amazing that people once understood that was one of the worst possible forms of government.  Oh well, back to lurking...

msm

[larry]

SO, FOLKS,

As a philosophical market-anarchist, in the very long run,
there is no necessary government social programs, and there
is no necessary government.

But, as I see it, the human who started this thread, newbie likely, had a variation on a ligit question.

And, I will say, with you knee-jerks giving your testimony, you
have likely already run him/her off.

As I see it, the thing you knee-jerks (is that okay, Jason?) don't
catch is the absolute necessity of incrementalism.

Lots of folks are poor in America, and lots of folks are starving to death in other lands

Why, because fascists and worse are in charge.

If you folks write up with "mutual aid" societies, while Archer
Daniels Midland is still on the government dole, not to mention
US farmers, to the tune of $100 billion over the next few years, and the list is virtually endless, in relation to fascists sucking on the fascist teat.

So, somebody writes up about "necessary social programs".

Well, folks, as long as we live in a fascist state, with the
in a symbotic relationship with the state, somebody pays the
price!!!!!

Somebody pays the price for Fascism, and it is the folks at the
bottom of the ladder, with the first rung gone.

So, I'll say it!!   Anarchist that I am.   You don't get to yank food
from starving humans, going on about mutual aid societies,
when they have already been destroyed by gummint.

Unless we are knee-jerks, running off folks who are concerned
about to poor, we better damned well deal with Archer Daniel
Midlands first.  And the Corporate teat suckers, as in the military industrial complex.

Good Gawd, I'm a philosophical market-anarchist, and the most incrementalist you will ever meet.

If you folks calim mutual aid societies can solve the current problem, with nearly full-blown fascism in place.  Well>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'd tell you what I truly think, but Jason would kick me out.

Think incrementalism, folks, and communication.

I figure the human who started this thred was a newbee,
and all she/he got was knee-jerks.

So Sad, with liberty the goal,

libertarian larry



.

[lloydbob1]

Larry,
You are correct, corperate welfare is just as bad a social welfare programs and probably more expensive.
Most corperate welfare occurs at the national level and we are talking about working, initially, at the state level where a lot of the social welfare programs exist.
Another thing to consider is that when we get to where we can stop corperate welfare, it will be stopped.  Social welfare, as practised today, is the gift that keeps on taking!
I see it here in Hartford (CT) all of the time.  A teenager gets pregnant.  The welfare people offer her an apartment if she leaves her family.  The boyfriend brags that he has made another baby.  She continues in a lifestyle of drinking, smoking, drugs, tight clothing and delivers a possibly pre-mature, probably sickly child costing the taxpayers thousands and thousands of dollars in medical bills. The child goes on to be a problem in school and gets involved with the legal system,  again,  costing the taxpayers thousands.  And the cycle just continues.
Lloyd

[larry]

Lloyd,

I understand the picture you have painted, below.  Please let me intersperse a bit, to flesh out the possible picture.

 A teenager gets pregnant.

Yup, the School Board had voted to teach nothing but abstenance in their "sex education" classes, to molify the right-wing conservatives.

About the same time, with the fascist gummint, with it's taxes and rules to benifit the rich far more than the poor, had so screwed up the economy that when her Father got laid off
from his twenty-year job and couldn't find a job, over-qualified for everything, he shot himself, just after his wife divorced him
for not being a good provider.

So, not wanting to live in the streets, who went out to find herself a job, to support herself, but with teenage unemployent rates at near 20% (as they, in fact are, right now), she found that the minimum wage had priced her out of the market.  She'd have been happy to have offered to work for 4.00 an hour to get the training, but that was against the law.

Desperate for survival, with mom and dad gone, and despising the gummint schools who forced her to memorize bullshit that was irrlevant to her life at the time, she met a guy who had lots of money.  

Yup, he'd turned the gummint's war on humans who use drugs
into a cash cow, with the gummint creating the job for him.

He was kind of a low-life, though, as you might expect.   Before
she had even decided to move in with him, seeking someone who cared, he threw her on the floor one night and raped her.

Teffiried, with no where to turn, she sought out her families
Catholic Priest for advice.  Well, he'd been arrested, you know what for, so the sub. Priest advised her.  "Whatever you do, don't get an abortion, or you will go to hell".

She, didn't, but one night, digging through garbage cans, some
guy offered to pay her for a lay, with him seeing beauty behind
the dirt.  He hit her a few times, but the money was good.
Not good enough to buy the folic acid to keep her baby healthy, but she was doing all she could to hang on herself.

In a flash, the baby was born.  It was unheathy, but still she loved it.   She started dressing up in tight clothes, and short skirts to promote the only way of survival she had been able
to find.

But one of her Johns beat the baby one night, for crying.

She went in search of a "mutual aid society" one day, but was
told they'd been driven out of the charity thing by gummint by welfare.

She checked into the gummint welfare thing, just hearing about it.   They treated her like shit, worse than a number.
She felt like she had sold her soul, but at least she and her
baby would have shelter and food.

Then one day, teaching herself to read, more than any government monoploy had, she read about the Free State
Project.  Reading about it, she had shivers of joy, and the first hope in what was now so many years.

When the state was selected, she hitched there with her
young son.  Long story short, she was elected the first
governess of the FSP, running on a platform of "abolish all
welfare, but do it incrementally.  Start at the top, and don't
go taking gummint food out of the mouths of babes until that is the last step to achieve true liberty!!

She won in a landslide, peeing of a few right-wing conservatives who didn't belong in the FSP, anyway.


*****

So, my friend, you can paint a picture.  So can I.   I maintain
my picture is much more accurate than yours, given the incipent fascist state we all live in.

A few years ago, after many years working as a purchasing agent, I was unemployed so long, losing hope, that garbage cans started to smell real good to me and my dog.

One week away from being kicked into the streets, I found a
part-time job to survive on.   Now, later, I have a real good job.

Tell ya this, though, I have not since reacted to the claims of
right-wing conservatives that welfare reciepients are just lazy free-loaders who vote for big gummint.  When I read that claim, these days, I think to myself: I hope you are unlucky enough to discover the truth of it yourself, smelling  the sicky sweetness of garbage cans.

Now, please don't take offense.  I'm not so much writing to you as I'm writing to all libertarians, FSPers, and especially right-wing, conservative, Rush Limberger nuts.

Sincerely,
Larry

[arclight]

What is a necessary social program?? Well? Anyone? I' ve looked in the constitution, and the closest thing that I 've found is the military. Other than that....
Where in the Constitution does it say you have to be nice to anyone?
It does not say that anywhere.
What is this notion out there that, healthcare is a "right"?
Welfare is a "right"?
Pills to drug your children into submission are somehow a "right"
Where is this entitlement spelled out? It must be there, if Hillary C and Teddy Kennedy can read it? Please tell us all? Pretty Please!!!
You government educated idiots who have this lofty sense of entitlement to go along with your lack of repect  ( or even acknowledgement) of the concept of individuality should all migrate to California before it sinks into the Pacific. Too bad, San Diego is such a beautiful city (from a distance).


None who accepts welfare should be allowed to vote!

[larry]

None who accepts welfare should be allowed to vote!

Uhh, Bud, do you drive on gummmit roads?  And do you
accept mail, delivered by the gummint?

And if you have been forced to pay for it your whole life,
what the *f* is wrong with cashing a social security check?

SORRY, BUD, WITH YOUR PROCLAIMED SUPERIORTY,
LOOK AT IT.   By your own standards, I figure you ain't
gotta right to vote.

What planet am I on??!!

libertarian larry

[lloydbob1]

None who accepts welfare should be allowed to vote!

Uhh, Bud, do you drive on gummmit roads?  And do you
accept mail, delivered by the gummint?

And if you have been forced to pay for it your whole life,
what the *f* is wrong with cashing a social security check?

SORRY, BUD, WITH YOUR PROCLAIMED SUPERIORTY,
LOOK AT IT.   By your own standards, I figure you ain't
gotta right to vote.

What planet am I on??!!

libertarian larry

What planet are you on Larry?
One who WORKS and pays taxes has not only paid for use of the roads and mails, they have overpaid!
They should have a say(vote) in how things are run.
Someone on welfare, has never had a real job(Teddy Kennedy) or who otherwise lives at a net lost to the society that pays the bills, has no right to any say in things.
Obviously, if you have had your income stolen from you in the Social Security extorsion system, you have a right to get it back with reasonable interest.

[arclight]

None who accepts welfare should be allowed to vote!

Uhh, Bud, do you drive on gummmit roads?  And do you
accept mail, delivered by the gummint?

And if you have been forced to pay for it your whole life,
what the *f* is wrong with cashing a social security check?

SORRY, BUD, WITH YOUR PROCLAIMED SUPERIORTY,
LOOK AT IT.   By your own standards, I figure you ain't
gotta right to vote.

What planet am I on??!!

libertarian larry

Hey BUD!! The cars are honking at you because you're not driving the speed limit! Get off the TAXpayer funded road. Stay home, the mailman is payed with your TAXES, and will bring you your mail. These things could very easily be privately funded, mail service and highway construction.
Don't give people a sob story about how "less- fortunate" or "un-lucky" you are. If you had half a mind, you would have invested and saved every penny possible from the time you were old enough to drive. Then you could tell the govt. to shove it and light those checks on fire.  If you didn't, too damn bad. Take your check from the Govt, but you do not contribute to the economy in any way, and you are more likely to be bought by politicians, as they are offering you more of other peoples money!so you do not vote!!! That is a great idea if you ask me. Please do!

[lloydbob1]

Lloyd,

I understand the picture you have painted, below.  Please let me intersperse a bit, to flesh out the possible picture.

 A teenager gets pregnant.

Yup, the School Board had voted to teach nothing but abstenance in their "sex education" classes, to molify the right-wing conservatives.

About the same time, with the fascist gummint, with it's taxes and rules to benifit the rich far more than the poor, had so screwed up the economy that when her Father got laid off
from his twenty-year job and couldn't find a job, over-qualified for everything, he shot himself, just after his wife divorced him
for not being a good provider.

So, not wanting to live in the streets, who went out to find herself a job, to support herself, but with teenage unemployent rates at near 20% (as they, in fact are, right now), she found that the minimum wage had priced her out of the market.  She'd have been happy to have offered to work for 4.00 an hour to get the training, but that was against the law.

Desperate for survival, with mom and dad gone, and despising the gummint schools who forced her to memorize bullshit that was irrlevant to her life at the time, she met a guy who had lots of money.  

Yup, he'd turned the gummint's war on humans who use drugs
into a cash cow, with the gummint creating the job for him.

He was kind of a low-life, though, as you might expect.   Before
she had even decided to move in with him, seeking someone who cared, he threw her on the floor one night and raped her.

Teffiried, with no where to turn, she sought out her families
Catholic Priest for advice.  Well, he'd been arrested, you know what for, so the sub. Priest advised her.  "Whatever you do, don't get an abortion, or you will go to hell".

She, didn't, but one night, digging through garbage cans, some
guy offered to pay her for a lay, with him seeing beauty behind
the dirt.  He hit her a few times, but the money was good.
Not good enough to buy the folic acid to keep her baby healthy, but she was doing all she could to hang on herself.

In a flash, the baby was born.  It was unheathy, but still she loved it.   She started dressing up in tight clothes, and short skirts to promote the only way of survival she had been able
to find.

But one of her Johns beat the baby one night, for crying.

She went in search of a "mutual aid society" one day, but was
told they'd been driven out of the charity thing by gummint by welfare.

She checked into the gummint welfare thing, just hearing about it.   They treated her like shit, worse than a number.
She felt like she had sold her soul, but at least she and her
baby would have shelter and food.

Then one day, teaching herself to read, more than any government monoploy had, she read about the Free State
Project.  Reading about it, she had shivers of joy, and the first hope in what was now so many years.

When the state was selected, she hitched there with her
young son.  Long story short, she was elected the first
governess of the FSP, running on a platform of "abolish all
welfare, but do it incrementally.  Start at the top, and don't
go taking gummint food out of the mouths of babes until that is the last step to achieve true liberty!!

She won in a landslide, peeing of a few right-wing conservatives who didn't belong in the FSP, anyway.


*****

So, my friend, you can paint a picture.  So can I.   I maintain
my picture is much more accurate than yours, given the incipent fascist state we all live in.

A few years ago, after many years working as a purchasing agent, I was unemployed so long, losing hope, that garbage cans started to smell real good to me and my dog.

One week away from being kicked into the streets, I found a
part-time job to survive on.   Now, later, I have a real good job.

Tell ya this, though, I have not since reacted to the claims of
right-wing conservatives that welfare reciepients are just lazy free-loaders who vote for big gummint.  When I read that claim, these days, I think to myself: I hope you are unlucky enough to discover the truth of it yourself, smelling  the sicky sweetness of garbage cans.

Now, please don't take offense.  I'm not so much writing to you as I'm writing to all libertarians, FSPers, and especially right-wing, conservative, Rush Limberger nuts.

Sincerely,
Larry

Larry, Your story is fiction.  If it were true it would be annecdotal.
The story I presented is epidemic here in Hartford and in cities across the country.
Lloyd

[telomerase]

"Needed social programs" will be provided by people who voluntarily organize and contribute to them.

Is anyone seriously suggesting that this will be less helpful to the poor? I worry about people who think that government can magically increase the amount of resources to solve social programs. I also worry about people who don't think that anyone would voluntarily help their neighbor (don't YOU help your neighbors?). In my experience, it's the help that people receive directly that puts them back on their feet. "Social programs" funded by taxes are largely designed to encourage permanent dependence.

[Newt]

State and Federal governments have a loosely defined "Mission"(Objective) to help people, educate children and fix things....  The confilcting "Vision" however, is growth and power.  One can always tell the Vision of an organization from the results it produces....  Results are the ultimate sign of intention. "Necessary Social Programs" are just the leverage governments use to accomplish their Vision.

Notice in Larry's dissertation that poverty and misery prevail in a country that has spent more tax money on programs to wipe out poverty (The Great Society) than the combined value of the S&P 500.  Yet we still have Larry's description of life in the US sounding like the Grapes of Wrath.  Why???  Larry's contention is that if we just had the right kind of govmint everything would be sweetness and light.

Larry's arguments are Marxist at their core.... Argueing that "Govmint" should somehow magically provide for the less fortunate and punish the "Rich" according to some mathmatical model of fairness.  The  base assumption here is that if I make a $, it had to come from someone that did not make it.  A zero sum game, which we know to be untrue or wealth would be like matter; neither created nor destroyed, only traded about.  If Larry's founding principle was true (The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer) we would all live in caves trading seashells, with some of us having large piles of shells since wealth is static.  Ayn Rand's Novel, Atlas Shrugged, so eloquently makes this argument (put is on your reading list Larry)

As Adam Smith pointed out 225 years ago, governments do not create wealth and well being, they only destroy it.  Economic health and growth are produced by large numbers of individuals acting in self interest.  The only question remaining is how much wealth do we allow the government to destroy.... and in comes the FSP.

[LeopardPM]

perfect Newt!