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Author Topic: what about necessary social programs  (Read 31670 times)

MajesticLeo

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2003, 08:11:22 am »

Ubik, the problem with "Social Security", other than the concept itself, is there is NO money "controlled by social security".  Politicians keep talking about "The Social Security Lockbox" but there is no separate funding for it.  The money comes from the general fund.  Originally there were funds set aside, but those quickly were "borrowed" for other more immediate uses and never repaid.  Talking about social security money is like looking at your checkbook and trying to differentiate the rent money from the car payment.  It is all supposed to be there somewhere........... 8)  And sometimes it is the only thing standing between the elderly and starving to death.

And the idea of looking out for #1, as you say is not all bad.  After all, you cannot look out for anyone else if you are not capable yourself.  Sort of like the instruction in airplanes to put on your oxygen mask before helping others don theirs.  
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ubik

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2003, 03:36:52 pm »

oh yeah, I forgot that the SS coffers are stuffed with IOUs but to most elderly folk who just wanna kick it and watch Matlock marathons on cable it means the difference between life & death.

it's hard to address the totality of any particular issue in a few posts on a web forum -- hmmm...
this is kind of another moot issue under libertarianism, eh?
as ppl have posted here it is best to find such assistance from one's immediate or extended family... and if u can actually create a haven from the fed's pickpocket taxation ppl will retain the $$$ they earn be enabled to provide their own assistance to programs or individuals they care about instead of funding world domination by the existing regime.
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heyerstandards

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2003, 04:43:21 pm »

Please note the fallacy in the original post: "for whatever reason, [some people] are unable to compete in an economy."  

That reads like something directly from the Steel or Railroad Unification Boards in Atlas Shrugged.  

By what moral code can someone take from my pocket to give to someone who refuses to work? or cannot work?

My moral code requires me to give the shirt off my back, of my own volition, to someone who direly needs it. The government's moral code says it's therefore ok to take my shirt at the point of a gun and give to away. (I guess to save me the trouble.)

Another joker on these boards keeps asking "We will legalize cannibalism?" Brother, you already got it under the government's moral code. Except the looters can only feed off the living.

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etphonehome

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2003, 07:37:40 pm »

It's also important to remember that since Social Security is a program controlled by the federal government, it will probably be beyond the scope of the Free State Project to do anything about it, at least in the near future. We need to work on getting all of the anti-freedom state laws repealed before we can divert our attention to changing national programs.
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LeopardPM

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2003, 11:39:37 pm »

Dearest Ubik,
Didn't mean to follow you to this thread, didn't expect you to show up here, so, please don't think I am personnally attacking you or stalking you in any way... you do have two interesting points tho...

maybe there is a semantical problem with "necessary social programs" but Social Security is a HUGE issue.   the AARP is thee most powerful lobby and they most likely frighten the elderly (like my 79 yo mother) into believing it is the ONLY thing between them and starving to death in the gutter.   I tell my mother that I believe that the unbelievable amt of $$$ controlled by Social Security could probably be used to balance the budget, provide healthcare that could extend life indefinitely and still have enuf left over to cover the moon in foot think layer of platinum.  ^_^

First, getting from the current status quo of the Social Security mess we are in to the goal of NO social security will be an extremely tough pill to shallow - one that I think everyone needs to prepare for in some manner.  We better have all of our charitable ducks in a row when the time comes to pay the piper so to speak - the elderly will scream bloody murder if their checks suddenly dissappear... and, no, the amount in the social security 'lock box' (ha) won't even cover the social security now promised to everyone let alone balance the budget or cover the moon with platinum - this is one of the problems - there is NO money!

Quote
the real issue is about how we all have been brainwashed to only look out for #1.


research a bit on this:  looking out for #1 is ultimately the 'best' way to have a fair and successful society... it will far bypass any socialist/communist attempts at caring for the poor or handicapped or elderly... etc

Quote
it is quite obvious that the FS will quickly evolve into "mini-kibbutzs"; extending out the *collective* concept I read of elsewhere on the site.   everything from farmer co-ops to uberGeek singularities.  
has anyone noticed how varied the attitudes and views of ppl in these forums are with only a few thousand involved?   balance needs to be addressed from the get-go -- otherwise is could be like a poorly planned potluck where everyone brings desert.   -_-


actually the variety in the FS and the natural individuality of the folks involved will be an incredible living experiment in social structure and order.  Yes, there will be uber-geek communities, communistic ones, freaky hippy love nests, gay-only towns, white-bigot co-ops, female-only communes.... and any other type of situation you can think of as long as force is not used or infringement on anothers property (pollution, trespass,etc).  The best part about these situations is that they will all have to compete against each other to be prosperous - which means the 'best' method for humans to live together will naturally float to the surface and the strange, unproductive communities will wither and die without any outside help... what better way to settle an argument on the best type of social structure - If you think you have a better way to do things, get some others of like mind and try it out.... and good luck

Why do you seem afraid of letting freedom run rampant?  This is something I have noticed in alot of people - they are afraid of what massive chaos could ensue, they are afraid of all the 'bad' people killing everyone with their M-16s while running crazily through the streets,naked, and high on dope... It is just not the general human nature to do these sorts of things... and when and if these things do occur, they will be dealt with much quicker in a free-market with a bunch of gun-toting grannies sitting out on their porches, just waiting for that neo-nazi to run up to their house and try to set it on fire... Go Granny Go get 'em!

oh well,
michael
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ubik

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2003, 12:48:44 am »

sorry, don't know how to do the quote box thing yet.

well, here's another category: tek slaves with mood swings.
I belong to so many oppressed classes I do not wish to enumerate.   I bet most ppl (people) don't even know what lengths we (teks) go to to make this whole thing work.

I've got da bug to go to Canada actually.   they are already eliminating marijuana prohibition greatly because it is getting so obvious how much of a drain it is on their society.

anyway, I keep getting confused about the alleged $$ in the SS lockbox.   I have read very detailed articles about how it is just one BIG IOU.   I guess it's this type of thing that makes me wonder if it is even possible to promote genuine change from *within* this fully corrupt infrastructure.
like how the sitting prez is in there due to voter fraud and a "Supreme Court" up for sale.  
[BREAK!   I hope we're kool.   I do get a bit too passionate about my views here'n'there.]

this is where I am a bit skeptical about the approach to migrate all of these ppl to a particular state and try to slowly (over how many election cycles?) convert an entire state to libertarianism.  don't get me wrong I commend the effort but I guess I am impatient and would rather just move out of the jurisdiction of the US federal gov't completely; esp. when Canada has such a head start.   I'm not particularly a supporter of the gay community but I think their move to allow gay marriage is logical and a definite step in the libertarian direction.

anyway, Mike, et al, sorry to get off on da wrong foot but strong opinions can clash at times, eh?

peace&prosperity!
Jon
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LeopardPM

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2003, 01:48:59 am »

Ubik,
I got no problem with opinions clashing... most times I learn something new or get the opportunity to view my own argument from a different point of view...

ok, now I got a question or two for ya: What is a 'tek'? or 'Tek Slave'?

I agree that our government is very corrupt and we have a LONG way to go.... BUT...

(I preface this by mentioning I know very little about the Canadian Governmental System and or politics)

from the few things I do know about Canada, it is not necessarily  more free than any state in the US...

More Free: regarding pot and gay marriage

Less Free: regarding governmental health care, very large social programs in general

Personnally, I would rather have pot illegal and NOT have any government health care at all, just my opinion BUT taxes or redistribution of income does not sound like freedom to me...

but, as with the great debate on 'which state', everyone has their own opinions and priorities as to the value of different governmental policies etc...

yours in freedom
michael
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ubik

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2003, 04:08:50 am »

wow, the tek slave issue...
people want computers to be like magic but Microsoft and others are just out to make $$$ and they cater to the megaCorp orgs so they need to make everything an act of wizardry, per se.
just to get a little perspective look closely at this this forum program.   there is the logical layout of the postings and check out the entry form with all the various "smilies" and YABBC tags (there is logic and purpose to every one of those buttons), etc, etc.
I was a Data Miner (scouring various undocumented databases for information) for the megaCorps for many, many years; dealing with tens of millions of records of data.
[www.netslaves.com]

as I am typing there is a vast army of greatly under-paid and over-worked networking specialists keeping thousands and thousands of servers connected to the Internet serving up websites and transmitting email, etc.

do u get that the FSP probably wouldn't even be possible without the web and that the PC and the Internet was originally created to help us help ourselves?
I want to develop bleedin' edge web-based applications that will truly fulfill this dream.   this forum program is great but it is possible to create an application that will assist in tracking issues and even provide decision support to whomever uses it.
every aspect of the FSP could be embellished by the web; like there are already a variety of ways to exchange gold online.

www.e-gold.com  (I think the FSP should have their own private version)

I've been thinking about all of this for years now.   it always seems like something comes along to distract us.   interesting how the FSP was launched 10 days before the 9/11 disaster, eh?
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MajesticLeo

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2003, 09:23:29 am »

"tek slaves"??????  Are you referring to people working in the computer/information technical field??  I worked in that field for many years and never considered myself a "slave".  The pay I recieved was the one I negotiated for myself and was adequate for the job I was asked to do.  Otherwise I would have changed jobs.  Freely entering into employment does not make one a "slave".  Greatly underpaid and overworked networking specialists???  I don't think so, unless you have a greatly inflated idea of your personal worth.

Of course Microsoft is in business to make money.  All business are there to make money, even so-called non-profit corporations.  This is the essence of Capitalism, as I understand it.  I am confused by your comment about "making everything an act of wizardry", what does that mean?  Everything is an "act of wizardry" if you don't understand how it works, but that is corrected by education.  Driving a car is "an act of wizardry" to someone unfamiliar with such an operation.  What is your point? Do away with capitalism?

The Internet was NOT originally "created to help us help ourselves", it was created to facilitate data/information exchange among selected universities and the military, it has evolved into something considerably different, but the current use was not what its creators intended.

Your comment about the current president being in office because of voter fraud and a paid for Supreme Court is far from true.  Yes there was voter fraud, as there always has been, but almost all of it was aimed at getting his opponent elected.  This smacks of the disengenious argument that Gore won "the popular vote".  So what?  This is a Republic, not a democracy and the "popular vote" only exists to establish how the representatives of the various states will be selected.  Read some Civics and get over it.

And I fail to see what any of this has to do with "necessary social programs"
« Last Edit: July 11, 2003, 09:25:51 am by MajesticLeo »
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ubik

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2003, 01:22:56 pm »

phuk, u all are such hard-ass mo-fos!

see, I still can remember the original Libertarian Party before all the radical Republican types came in and phuked it up, as usual.
here again there is no real discussion as most of u are completely incredulous about the concept of "social programs".
I think y'all are playin' with turning the US into a version of Mad Max dragging the country into a new Dark Age with this hard-ass attitude.
this is why I say there needs to be more intelligence in this forum program; ie. once the sentiment that "social programs" are contrary to this new hard-ass LP attitude of dog-eat-dog'ism then close the thread.

do y'all really think u r gonna compete with international megaCorps with your small potatoes "whatever the market will allow" attitude.   phuk, your reps in this alleged "free state" will be more up for sale than the existing bunch of fools.

sorry about any off-topic issue but so many issues tie into others and this pervasive attitude of dog-eat-dog is not a way of living that will enhance people's lives in the long run.

WARNING: do NOT join the FSP unless u know how to use an assault rifle because the first labor dispute against some "plantation owner" like MajesticLeo will devolve into civil war.

what part of the tek biz were u in anyway - middle [phukn worthless] management?   I wouldn't wanna be an employee of any company run with this guys attitude.   do u really think anyone has any clout to *negotiate* [as u so naively put it] a decent raise without some sort of a guild or union (oops, that's probably an obscenity in here)?
I think that the neoConservatives have assimilated the LP.
if u r upset with my post don't fret too much because I won't likely return to this forum much.

PS: how in the world anyone claiming to be a Libertarian could support the current US regime is beyond me.   these past few years have been the greatest attack on personal liberty in a long, long time or haven't u heard of Patriot Act I and II?????
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Penfist

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2003, 01:32:38 pm »

Who said we support the current Congress or White House administration?

It would help if you would use proper English. Your posts take three times longer to read and digest than the ones written in standard English.

Knowing how to use an "assault" rifle is a basic survival skill. Learning how to capitalize will enhance your income potential.

Go join a Union if you're uncomfortable here. Just remember, they're going to skim a large chunk off the top of your salary, and the government will still get its cut. You won't be able to compete because you'll have to charge $30/hour to weave baskets while the unionless people in India will weave them for $5/hour.
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ubik

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2003, 01:49:56 pm »

just curious.   did u read this part of Mr Leo's post?

Your comment about the current president being in office because of voter fraud and a paid for Supreme Court is far from true.  Yes there was voter fraud, as there always has been, but almost all of it was aimed at getting his opponent elected.  This smacks of the disengenious argument that Gore won "the popular vote".  So what?  This is a Republic, not a democracy and the "popular vote" only exists to establish how the representatives of the various states will be selected.  Read some Civics and get over it.

>>> I guess we'd have to go further off topic and discuss the archaic aspects of the Electoral College, eh?   this guy wants to perpetuate non-democratic rule and u complained about my style of typing?   I am a tek.   I have had to spend a great deal of life just to keep up with the evolution of the computer industry so, yes, I have come up with a *unique* style of written communication.   'nuff said.
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MajesticLeo

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2003, 02:17:54 pm »

I am sorry you have had such a difficult life attempting to keep up with technology, Ubik.  Personally, I started working with computers as a technician maintaining mainframes and peripheral equipment when you were 10 years old, then a technician educator, then a network administrator.  So I really have no sympathy for you.  And keeping up with technology has not caused me to adopt some arcane style of writing in hopes it will make me appear "wizardly".  Unfortunately, from your point of view apparently,  clear communicaton skills are seen to be a positive attribute in the job world.  I can see where your "style" would make promotion more difficult.  You probably would find it very difficult to work in a company of mine because I require employees to be able to discuss problems, both with clients and other employees in a clear, understandable manner.  

You wouldn't have to worry about my assault rifle, my preferred weapon is the M-14 (which I carried many a mile in the Army) so I can reach out and touch you at a distance.  Yep, I am rabidly non-union cause I have seen the harm they can cause such as loss of jobs and lack of quality in union work.  

You seem to be infected with so much vituperation against almost everything, why is that?  I have no objections to people having differing views than mine, but I do appreciate them being expressed in a civilized and understandable manner.   I don't know what your problem is with "middle-management", since they are a necessary part of a business where responsibility is delegated from the top. (oops, I almost said in a hierarchal manner, tsk, tsk)  Perhaps you wish everyone in the whole world would be engaged in cottage industries and live in little quaint villages so as not to be contaminated by MegaCorps (whatever they are)?

Perhaps there are necessary social programs after all.....have you seen a counsellor about all this anger and self-loathing?
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LeopardPM

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2003, 04:34:31 pm »

luv ya Leo!

michael
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skypod

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Re:what about necessary social programs
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2003, 05:27:29 pm »

There are no necessary social programs. ;)
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