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Author Topic: More NH, ID, WY debate  (Read 28756 times)

jgmaynard

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2003, 07:09:51 pm »

Hi Dave:

Yes, I would love to visit Wyoming sometime, and I hope you take a visit to New Hampshire as well... Believe me, we are nothing nothing  nothing like Boston, and DARN proud of it. We are a fiercely independent, frugal, hard working people who want to be NOTHING like the state Government which has taken power to the south of us (though some people in Mass are nice, their Government is not even close to the way we choose to live).
I also live in New Hampshire "by choice".  I tried living in Vermont for a year, and quickly became a tax refugee back to NH.
I started in the FSP as not knowing anything about WY except my beliefs, and have enjoyed learning more. I hope you would like to learn more about NH as well by taking a look at
http://www.lpnh.org/why-nh.htm or http://www.nhorbust.com .
Welcome again to our newest porcupine!

JM
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Joe

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2003, 03:59:13 pm »

The following nested set of quotes came from the STATE TOUR thread.
It may be best to answer the question here -- look below the set of quotes.
Let's wait & see how the vote goes.  That will show us whether people remain ignoramuses, or do their research.  We're going to make it easy for them by putting the best research in the voting packets.

Do you believe that every person who does adequate research (whether that be 450 hours or 450,000 hours) will eventually rank the ten states in the same, and correct, order?
If there are people who are going to be ranking the states of ND, VT, ME, or DE any higher than last-place, they aren't letting us in on the reason for doing so!

Just about everyone who has taken some serious time to study the issues and the facts, seem to end-up thinking of NH,ID,and WY as serious contenders for upper-place, with AK,MT,SD certainly better than last.

Interesting that you responded, exitus. I asked the question of Jason this time because I have previously asked you more or less the same question three times now and have never gotten a straight answer out of you. You just made it four.

A simple "yes" or "no" would suffice...  ;)
Libertarian40,

I had the fortune to work with physicians of a great range of experience when I was a medic in a USAF Emergency Room. Older docs with decades of experience could pick out a correct diagnosis by looking, listening and judging and giving what looked to us as a "gut feel" decision. The young docs, because they did not have much experience to base a "gut feel" upon, often would order lots of tests and exams and evaluate lots of criteria.  In time they too developed a confidence in their "gut feeling" and could better order more focused tests to refine their initial judgments. In civilian practice even experienced docs may do the same in order to document their decisions because "gut feel" is not defensible to people who have lost in a medical decision. "Gut feel" is not defensible in civil or criminal court. There is also the chance that yet another mind looking at the criteria or another test will find something that even the most experienced physician has overlooked -- something that will entirely alter the decision.

Thus we, like those inexperienced doctors or those experienced doctors who realize that so very, very, much relies on a correct decision, will look at as many criteria as we can discover.  A lot is at stake with the FSP decision. Ten thousand or more families risking a major move. Perhaps more importantly, the success or failure of this Free State effort after the move will be used for better or worse for or against us everywhere else.

In the following I speak as a councilman and going by what I've learned from dealing with our lawyer-mayor and the public.

Changes to increase or decrease liberty are determined by votes where 51% beats 49%.  Yes, emotion and gut feel do play a part in those votes, but the final criteria is a number -- win or lose by a few votes as just happened to Joey in his bid for school board.  Thus we, like professional political pollsters and analysts, try to quantify as much as possible and translate even the emotional "gut feel" tendencies of the potential voters into numbers we can use to predict whether the Free State initiatives will win or lose . Hopefully we can identify those situations where just a little more effort would make a win -- and we apply that effort in time. On the other hand, hopefully we can identify those situations where a lot more effort won't make any difference -- and we can apply that effort elsewhere where it will make enough difference.

No two people who look at or use the spreadsheets and/or the many tables and analyses on this forum will come to the same conclusions regarding state choices. Different people will place different weights upon different criteria. Everybody comes to this process with different experiences. Some will have far less experience and will be going on what they hope will be the case. Others have more experience with hopes being dashed. These latter will insist on better numbers, more rigorous analyses, and then they'll apply a large amount of experience-based pessimism to even the best of the predictions -- just in case we missed something important.


Both our mayor and I, when people express a position pro or con on an issue, we want to know "why" -- on what basis are they making such a judgment?.  Them giving us an answer of "I like it." or "I hate it." is not adequate.  Maybe they have some reasons that could influence all of our decisions. Maybe they have criteria or experience that would get us to seriously reconsider our positions.  This has happened to me and thus I have changed my mind on issues. Give me reasons, give me numbers, give me concrete examples, give me theories based on evidence.  Give me something more to go on than, "faith" or "like" or "dislike".  Yet, if there are people with lots of experience which I respect, I will rely on their "gut feeling" -- though I will check with other people and look at other criteria too -- just in case.

I may not agree with other's positions or decisions but, if those decisions or positions are based on experience and/or measurable criteria that some people weigh differently than I, then I can respect their decisions or positions because I understand "why" they voted as they did.

The above is why I keep asking you all "why" and asking for data to back up your "hopes" and "gut feel".

Not all of us will come to the same decisions. Not all of us will rank the states the same way. But at least we can then understand "why" the others decide as they do.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2003, 12:51:24 am by Joe (sequel to Solitar) »
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Dave Mincin

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2003, 10:42:38 am »

Pretty much in agreement with what you have to say Joe.  The why to why people act, think, or even vote the way they do, will be the key to our success.

Only by truly understanding why one votes as one does will we be in a position to change their thought.

Why it is so important for us to hear each other out, understand each other.  Even when we disagree we much understand, and respect each other, or how will be be able to work together?

As for gut-feeling, I rate that as the most important variable, and is why I support New Hampshire.

Not being a hard core political activitist like many of you, I will need people to learn from, people to bounce my ideas off, people that I am already convinced that I will be comfortable working with, and an idea what I can do when I get there.  My gut-feeling tells me that is New Hampshire!

And by the way, glad you could join us Dave, and Welcome!

David Mincin
Pittsburgh, PA
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paul

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2003, 02:32:37 pm »

Any chance some of these god awful eastern states (like NH) could be removed from consideration if their population is expected to be too large by the time a vote and a move could be complete?
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Dave Mincin

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2003, 04:55:03 pm »

"god awful eastern states?"  You mean the ones who wrote and adopted the Constitution?  Perhaps we could discuss this in more detail in New Hampshire! :)
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jgmaynard

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2003, 05:13:10 pm »

"god awful eastern states?"  You mean the ones who wrote and adopted the Constitution?"

1774 - NH is the first state to declare itself free from england

No general sales nor income tax, no seat belt laws, no helmet laws, second lowest tax rate in the country (money magazine), smallest state Government, The largest, most sucessful LP in the country, the highest % of FSP members in the country, no mandatory insurance, and the ONLY constitution in the world to guarantee her citizens the right to revolution.
Oh yeah, and New Hampshire is a DARN pretty state too! :o)

THAT god awful state? ;)

JM
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di540

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2003, 05:50:57 pm »

"god awful eastern states?"  You mean the ones who wrote and adopted the Constitution?  
.
Yes, and it was those same states who pulled a bait & switch on
those who had fought to create "Free and Independent" States, as
in the Declaration of Independence, but instead wound up with a
"Confederation and Perpetual Union" which lasts to this day, as
the Constitution only perfected that Union instead of replacing
it.
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jgmaynard

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2003, 06:08:30 pm »

There were many reasons for the failure of the Articles of Confederation, including the inability of the Feds to print money.
We tried the articles... they didn't work... BUT the Constitution as written is far superior to what we got after the expansion of the Feds after 1913 (Income Tax) and WW1....
LONG after the Feds bought the land you are living on ;)

JM
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di540

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2003, 06:53:04 pm »

There were many reasons for the failure of the Articles of Confederation, including the inability of the Feds to print money.
We tried the articles... they didn't work... BUT the Constitution as written is far superior to what we got after the expansion of the Feds after 1913 (Income Tax) and WW1....
.
It was the Constitution that brought you the 16th Amendment,
etc, not the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union,
which didn't fail, any more than the Constitution has failed.
However, instead of trying to perfect the Confederation, the
13 States could have tried to perfect the original Federation,
and the State Constitutions. Else, if the State constitutions
were/are so great, why weren't they good enough to run "Free
and Independent States"?
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Robert H.

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2003, 11:24:24 pm »

Yes, and it was those same states who pulled a bait & switch on
those who had fought to create "Free and Independent" States, as
in the Declaration of Independence, but instead wound up with a
"Confederation and Perpetual Union" which lasts to this day, as
the Constitution only perfected that Union instead of replacing
it.

Well, we're straying off topic with this, but I did want to add something about the final part of the above statement.

The Constitution created a separate Union from that which existed under the Articles of Confederation; it did not merely "perfect" the existing Union, it did away with it entirely.

There are a great many evidences for this, but one which readily comes to mind is the fact that Articles stipulated a Union of thirteen specified states.  Each state was named in the document, and the so-called "perpetual" Union was established between them.

However, when the Constitution came along, it required ratification by only nine states to go into effect, and then only between those nine states "so ratifying the same."  Thus when the first nine states votes to adopt the Constitution, they voted to create a new government between themselves and with no regard to the remaining four states.  The thirteen state Union stipulated by the Articles then ceased to exist because all thirteen required members no longer acknowledged its authority, and four states were left completely in limbo with no further obligation imposed either upon or between them.

Robert H.

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2003, 11:32:57 pm »

Any chance some of these god awful eastern states (like NH) could be removed from consideration if their population is expected to be too large by the time a vote and a move could be complete?

I believe only Idaho is projected to be over the limit (in excess of 1.5 million inhabitants) by the time the move is scheduled to be complete.  And, oddly enough, in spite of its higher population, I believe Idaho is actually the best "large" state choice.

di540

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Re:More NH, ID, ME debate
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2003, 12:30:48 am »

I believe only Idaho is projected to be over the limit (in excess of 1.5 million inhabitants) by the time the move is scheduled to be complete.  And, oddly enough, in spite of its higher population, I believe Idaho is actually the best "large" state choice.

In that case, this thread should be changed to a debate of the
large (>1.25 million) states. As for Idaho, there were many
people moving there already, about 150,000 more moved in than
left in the last decade. This might indicate a strong job
market in the 90s, but a tight housing market. How are things
now?

At the other extreme Maine had a net emigration of 15,000.
NH had a net immigration of 25,000.
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larry

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2003, 03:49:06 am »

Howdy, Folks,

With me taking a vacation from the group for awhile, I just returned,
and just tonight noticed this thread.   I didn't have time to read it
all, but I did read many writing that "Idaho was (their) personal choice, re quality of life factors", but, with liberty the goal they
would sacrifice for the higher value.

Uhh, first question:  Well the next 15 K do the same?

First point is:  There's no need to choose 'tween quality of life and
the state where the FSP can find the greatest success.  It's Idaho.

Idaho just did raise it sales tax by 20%, to 6%.   What's you first
thought?  Move Idaho to the bottom of the list?  Wrong!  Please
let me explain.  

Idaho has *the* most Republican Legislature in the "Union" and I
believe it is clearly the most conservative state in the "Union".  So
much so that the Democrats are flirting with minor party status.

So, what's with the sales tax increase?   Here's what.  The elected
Rebublicans know no conservative will ever vote democrat.  So, how
can they best insure their power.  By buying off potential Democrat
voters by voting as if the were liberal Democrats.

The elected Repulicans think they have the conservative voters in
their pockets, no matter how they vote.

So, this year, given this history, the state is in a bit of a financial
crises.   What did the "conservative" Legislature do.  They gave the
education monopoly, and the other bureuacracies everything they
wanted, and raised taxes.  Reason for the FSP to reject Idaho?
Far from it!!

Republican conservative voters are livid, red faced and screaming
betrayal, taken for granted as they have been, but they have no
where to go.  Nowhere!!

ENTER THE FSP, FOR A REVOLUTION!!!!!, in the near term.

Reading the FSP lists, everyone seems to be trying to select the
state which is currently the freeest.

That focus, as I see it, at least in relation to Idaho,  is simplistic, as
I see it, and overlooks factors which could give us our greatest
success.

Food For Thought,

Larry Fullmer




   











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Dave Mincin

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2003, 09:56:06 pm »

Just curious!  How may states have you opted out of?  RobertH and rest of you freedom lovers?  Maybe any state east of the Mississippi?  :)  For the record I have opted out of none.  Do you want to say? :)
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jgmaynard

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2003, 11:44:17 pm »

I have only opted out of Alaska... Just tooooo cold!

JM
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