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Author Topic: More NH, ID, WY debate  (Read 29083 times)

Robert H.

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2003, 07:51:21 pm »

But Robert, all this talk about fallback and ID>WY or WY>ID makes my head hurt. I kinda see your point, sort of...

But let's be smart, and avoid these ugly fallback scenarios altogether by picking Wyoming.

Zxcv,

I agree with you here, and I probably over-analyzed that situation in the above post.  Fallback scenarios are not optimal by any means.  Like you, I wasn't trying to get into the idea of strategic voting (it would be pointless under Condorcet anyway), but rather, I was trying to demonstrate that Wyoming and Idaho are ideally situated.

And your point about New Hamphire is very well taken; Idaho is it's main competition.

Keith wrote:
Quote
However, the real question is, why would anyone vote for Idaho, at ALL.  Idaho has over 1,350,000 people right now but is expected to grow so fast that is has 2,600,000+ people by 2025 (with a very large amounf of these people coming from CA).  Seriously, that is TOO LARGE FOR US.  What is the point?  We will need 50,000 people and not 20,000.  Idaho is only an option if it can give up 50,000, if those population projections are correct.  I hope they are not, because if they are, it might be a REALLY BAD idea to even vote for Idaho.

Keith, I absolutely agree with you.  If anything, Idaho is too much horse for the FSP, but then again, I believe that Idaho, Maine and New Hampshire are all too much horse for us.  Of the three, Idaho is the larger, but, ironically, I also believe it's the better choice.  For one thing, it's located in a better neighborhood.   ;)

Unfortunately, it appears that a sizeable number of FSPer's simply will not consider any state below a certain size, and I was thinking that they might feel more comfortable voting for Wyoming with Idaho right next door - in the event that they can't find a job or can't hack it or whatever.  It's already been made clear that legitimate hardships will not be held against FSP members who can't relocate for some reason.

But I firmly believe that our paramount concern should be which state is best for liberty overall.  Let's at least try to make it work where it has the best chance; we have too much at stake here to do otherwise.

Robert H.

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2003, 05:47:48 am »

We've examined personal and corporate income taxes, but I'm not certain if we've ever looked at business franchise taxes, which are typically levied on corporate assets and property rather than income.  

Here's some information in regard to business franchise taxes in New Hampshire, Idaho, and Wyoming (from the Business Owner's Toolkit):

New Hampshire:

If your corporation in New Hampshire is a domestic corporation (a corporation organized in New Hampshire) or a foreign corporation (a corporation organized in a state other than New Hampshire), you must file an annual report. The annual report, along with a $100 fee, is payable to the Secretary of State.

http://www.toolkit.cch.com/text/P07_5263.asp

Idaho:

Income tax on business income computed based upon corporate taxable net income is required in Idaho. Although domestic and foreign corporations and limited liability companies are required to file annual reports with the Secretary of State in Idaho, there is no fee for filing the report, and there are no other franchise taxes in the state.

http://www.toolkit.cch.com/text/P07_4775.asp

Wyoming:

Whether you are a domestic corporation (a corporation organized in Wyoming) or a foreign corporation (a corporation organized in a state other than Wyoming), you must file an annual franchise tax report, otherwise known as the annual license tax. The tax is based on the corporate property and assets located and employed in Wyoming. The license tax is $50 or two-tenths of one mill on the dollar ($.0002), whichever is greater.

The same annual license tax applies to Limited Liability Companies (LLCs), Limited Partnerships (LPs) and Registered Limited Liability Partnerships (RLLPs).

http://www.toolkit.cch.com/text/P07_6008.asp

jgmaynard

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2003, 06:44:56 pm »

"If the vote goes to New Hampshire and a fallback to Wyoming comes into play"

I have a feeling that is we don't reach 20k in time, then Jason is going to declare Wyoming the fallback, and NH and WY will each benefit....

Of course, then the question becomes.... If NH IS chosen, can people already living here join???  ;)
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JasonPSorens

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2003, 07:33:24 pm »

All I can say right now is that I'm sure as heck not going to "declare" anything!  If and when we decide we won't be able to reach 20,000, those of us who decide to continue will have to get together and decide on the best course of action.  Just as we did in the early days of the Project.
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Zxcv

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2003, 12:50:46 am »

Quote
Of course, then the question becomes.... If NH IS chosen, can people already living here join???  

I guess that's already been settled. Whatever the chosen state is, no members after the vote may come from it. (Did I get that right, Jason?)
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JasonPSorens

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2003, 07:46:31 am »

That's right, they'll be considered Friends, since we don't want to inflate our numbers.  Actually, there's been a suggestion to have a special category of Free Staters Already Living in State, which would go up over time after we chose the state, as people move in there.
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jgmaynard

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2003, 05:14:34 pm »

Hey Jason - I remember in one forum post lately, you said that if we didn't reach 20k in time, then we would have to choose a state, probably WY, and create a more loosely based group there.
It's a paraphrase, but I know it was something like that. if I could think of where I saw it, I'd find it. :) That's what I was basing my statement on.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2003, 05:56:27 pm »

Hey Jason - I remember in one forum post lately, you said that if we didn't reach 20k in time, then we would have to choose a state, probably WY, and create a more loosely based group there.
It's a paraphrase, but I know it was something like that. if I could think of where I saw it, I'd find it. :) That's what I was basing my statement on.

Well, here's what I wrote exactly:

Quote
Nailing things down in terms of a backup plan would be desirable, but it would have to be done carefully.  The backup plan wouldn't technically be the FSP anymore, and no one would be "required" (in a moral sense) to participate in it.  But obviously, what the most active people in the FSP decide to do could have a big impact on what others decide to do as well.

But the other tricky part is deciding on what the backup plan is, because there are many other options besides those Paul has laid out, depending on where we stall out.

If we stall out before 5,000... The Project should probably disband completely, with no alternative set up.  Some people may want to start a Free Territory Project to go to the Virgin Islands.  It seems really unlikely that we would stall out before 5000.

If we stall out between 5,000 and about 8,000 (or if there's unexpected massive attrition after the state vote)... We should perhaps target a bloc of counties in a low-population state.  Which low population state?  Probably the one that wins the vote.  Low-population states are created rather equal when it comes to settling & influencing counties (you can come up with a range of counties in any state where a few thousand could have a very significant influence).

If we stall out between 8,000 and about 12,000... Falling back on WY could be the best bet, but targeting counties in the winning state would have a lot of supporters, especially if people want to start moving early.

If we stall out between 12,000 and about 16,000... The fallback options increase.  AK, SD, ND, VT, and perhaps DE could all be candidates.

If we stall out just short of 20,000... Probably best to just go ahead and try to move to the winning state & make the best of it in the long run.  We could encourage people to start moving once 16,000 had been reached.

I'm sure there are other alternatives I haven't thought of!  There's also the danger that stipulating a fallback option will really damage recruitment by reducing some of the urgency.  From that perspective, we want to make the consequences of falling significantly short of 20,000 sufficiently dire as to put fire in the belly of our activists.

I don't know what the right thing to do here is, because of the uncertainties involved.  More discussion of the idea should be helpful, though.

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1426;start=15
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vepope

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2003, 08:27:47 am »

I must say that I'm partial to WY, but here is a link to a story that may affect the outcome.  It's about a forecast of  long-term water shortages that includes Casper, WY as a possible affected area.

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20030503/D7QPOEF00.html

My concern here is that we don't want to get all relocated, and nice and cozey in our new homes, only to have fed regulators start telling us how much water we can use for pets, crops, and lawns.
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davetravel

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2003, 09:50:24 am »

A few Thoughts in favor of Wyoming.

Note Admitted Bias:  Already Wyoming Resident

1)   Small population size maximizes impact of  project.
2)   No State Income Tax.  No need to change existing state tax laws.  Compelling enough reason by itself to induce people to move.
3)   Libertarian presence already exists.  I have been able to vote libertarian on the ballot for most major offices.
4)   One of the prettiest places on the planet earth.  


Dave
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jgmaynard

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2003, 10:06:00 am »

Hi Dave:

I notice that was your first post. Welcome.

I think you'll find many of the same things you love about Wyoming, we also love about New Hampshire.

A few Thoughts in favor of New Hampshire.

Note Admitted Bias:  Already New Hampshire Resident

1)   Small voting district size and low election costs maximize impact of  project.
2)   No State Income Tax.  No sales tax. No need to change existing state tax laws.  Compelling enough reason by itself to induce people to move.
3)   Libertarian presence already exists.  The LPNH has more libertarian office holders already than any other state LP in the country.
4)   One of the prettiest places on the planet earth.  

See? Told ya! ;)
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freedomroad

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2003, 10:54:33 pm »

A few Thoughts in favor of Wyoming.
Here are some other reasons why Wyoming would make a good FS:
http://www.geocities.com/freewyoming/WhyWyoming

Quote
Note Admitted Bias:  Already Wyoming Resident

1)   Small population size maximizes impact of  project.

That is a good point Dave.  Almost every member of the project already things that is the most important factor in picking the state.
Quote

2)   No State Income Tax.  No need to change existing state tax laws.  Compelling enough reason by itself to induce people to move.

Another good point.  Wyoming has the lowest income tax rates out of all 10 states, NONE.  Even NH has a handful of different income taxes or taxes on different types of income.  AK taxes corporate income and SD takes a very few select types of corporate income.

I did not plan it, but my 4 favorite states are the state I mentioned above and they just happen to be the 4 states with the lowest income taxes.

Quote
3)   Libertarian presence already exists.  I have been able to vote libertarian on the ballot for most major offices.

Although Wyoming does have a LP presense and the LP is a major party in Wyoming, I do not consider this a very important factor.  Wyoming is 4th, out of the 10 states in per capita LP membership (behind NH, AK, and VT), I think.

Quote
4)   One of the prettiest places on the planet earth.  
After looking at a 1,000 or so pictures of Wyoming I have to agree.  I would say that Alaska is the only state the is more pretty than Wyoming.  If all 50 states were being considered, I would put both HI and AK ahead of Wyoming.

Here are some pictures of Wyoming:
http://www.geocities.com/freewyoming/inpictures
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Dave

Dave, Welcome to the FSP Forum.
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Robert H.

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2003, 02:23:30 am »

Note Admitted Bias:  Already Wyoming Resident

Welcome, Dave.   :)

In addition to these forum threads, there is also a Wyoming discussion list for FSP members and friends.  You can find it here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wyfsp/

And the home address for the site that FreedomRoad mentioned is a little something we put together to showcase Wyoming for FSP members.  Being a Wyoming resident, any input you might contribute toward making that site better would be valuable:

http://www.geocities.com/freewyoming

davetravel

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2003, 04:06:25 pm »

Hi James:

Thank you for the welcome.  Touche on your
response for NH.  Although I have been in most of
the states, I have not made it to NH.  I have worked
for a Boston based company for many years, and
have spent enough time there to develop a
sincere negative bias to New England.  I apologize for
my ignorance showing by sub-conciously thinking of
you with the same broad stroke.  

I do live in Wyoming by choice.  Life is short, come for
a visit.

d
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davetravel

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2003, 04:18:42 pm »

Hi Jason:

In your message, you indicated a trend to start
narrowing down which county in Wyoming would
best suit our needs.  I will argue against the county
that I am currently a resident in.  I live in the extreme
southwest corner (Uinta Co.).  I love it.  Part of the
reason that I live here is the proximity to a major
airport (82 miles to Salt Lake Int'l) as a requirment to
making a living.

However, in this portion of the state there is a
heavy LDS (Mormon) population.  This is not bad, as
they are good people and good neighbors.  However,
they are a well organized block that could run
counter to efforts to maximize our freestate tenants.

Dave
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