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Author Topic: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"  (Read 20780 times)

lastlady

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2008, 10:53:33 pm »

And let's remember it's not really that important who gets voted in anyway. We will change this country from the bottom up, not from the top down. I didn't realize Baldwin was not on the ballot in NH. I guess I would write in Ron Paul.

 
Chris, does Nader represent your views on anything?
last lady has them.

So who in NH would I be able to vote for?
I know Nader isn't going to win.. so it is more and anti the rest of them vote.

McBama?  No way.
Barr?   After the crap he pulled when he just barely had my vote anyway? (PAT RIOT act, drug war, Iraq invasion)
Baldwin is not on the ballot.
Phillies?  Nope not after the crap he pulled at the last 2 Liberty Forums.

So that leaves me with Nader or write in Ron. (stay tuned on the Ron front.. I may have some news about this in a week or so concerning NH)
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Porcupine The Godful Heathen

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2008, 10:00:05 am »

Chris, does Nader represent your views on anything?
last lady has them.

So who in NH would I be able to vote for?
I know Nader isn't going to win.. so it is more and anti the rest of them vote.

McBama? No way.
Barr? After the crap he pulled when he just barely had my vote anyway? (PAT RIOT act, drug war, Iraq invasion)
Baldwin is not on the ballot.
Phillies? Nope not after the crap he pulled at the last 2 Liberty Forums.

So that leaves me with Nader or write in Ron. (stay tuned on the Ron front.. I may have some news about this in a week or so concerning NH)

Writing in Ron Paul. Nader is a hard-core socialist whack-job.
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"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as judge in the field of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods." - Einstein

Porcupine The Godful Heathen

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2008, 10:01:47 am »

And let's remember it's not really that important who gets voted in anyway. We will change this country from the bottom up, not from the top down.

This is the truth. But I look at voting for someone as a form of support. Politicians see the numbers and view it as a mandate for their positions, ALL their positions, whether you support all of their positions or not.
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"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as judge in the field of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods." - Einstein

dalebert

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #78 on: September 17, 2008, 11:23:51 am »

I understand and agree with your point. I guess I am hopeful he can be turned around to understand government is the problem not the solution. Perhaps I am naive, but I think he is just misguided and not a complete liar and evil doer.

I don't think your you're naive. The far left seems just a hair away from libertarian, that hair being a basic grasp of economic principles.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 12:21:00 pm by dalebert »
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Russell Kanning

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2008, 11:24:55 am »

Why are you for open borders?  I thought part of libertarianism was for protection of our country.
I believe liberty includes the freedom to travel around. I don't think it would be right for me to stop someone from moving near me.
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2008, 11:31:07 am »

Why are you for open borders?  I thought part of libertarianism was for protection of our country.
I believe liberty includes the freedom to travel around. I don't think it would be right for me to stop someone from moving near me.

Indeed. And government “protection” and “our country” aren’t things I’m particularly concerned about, nor want. Government “protection” usually comes back around to bite the protected in the ass,* and I consider “our country” to be nothing more than lines on a map.


* Much of the domestic police state, surveillance technology, &c., that we’re dealing with nowadays was first tested out as border control. And what they’re using to “secure the border” today will probably be used against citizens in five years’ time.
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Ren

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2008, 12:23:09 am »

I see your points about wanting open borders, but what if our country was more like Israel, with human bombers blowing up buildings and people.  How would you feel living in an environment like that?  I think that is what people are afraid of.  Of our country turning into a land where terrorist run free!  Thus the need for closed borders, patriot act, etc.  Thus the gov't and the majority of people think protection is needed  for our country. This is actually part of being a libertarian - protection of country.  It's too bad, it means giving up some personal freedoms.   That's probably another reason NH. is a good place to be for a liberty state.  Better chance of getting rid of some of the restrictions than if you were in NY city, etc.   
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2008, 12:32:10 am »

I see your points about wanting open borders, but what if our country was more like Israel, with human bombers blowing up buildings and people.  How would you feel living in an environment like that?

Except, it’s not like that, so such paranoiac security is unneeded.

I think that is what people are afraid of. 

I’m sure most of them have convinced themselves of that.

Of our country turning into a land where terrorist run free!  Thus the need for closed borders, patriot act, etc.  Thus the gov't and the majority of people think protection is needed  for our country.

There are a lot of bad things the country could turn into. Should we protect ourselves against all of those remote possibilities, too?

This is actually part of being a libertarian - protection of country.  It's too bad, it means giving up some personal freedoms.

How is supporting the creation of a police state part of libertarianism?
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Ren

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2008, 12:52:17 am »

[

How is supporting the creation of a police state part of libertarianism?
[/quote]

The protection part.... I don't think that most people think they are living in a police state, cause it doesn't effect their own individual lives that much.  Yes, at the airport, and some other things, but for the most part, they are willing to be inconvenienced for thinking they are getting a higher amount of safety.  As I've said, it's too bad it's come down to this, but most people will put up with it, because they feel the gov't is trying to protect us.  Geez, hardly a day goes by where some commentator doesn't say how well it's working, cause we haven't been attacked since 9/11.  Most believe this, whether it's true or not.  I personally think there's too much intrusion, but I think I'm in the minority on this.
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2008, 12:59:19 am »

How is supporting the creation of a police state part of libertarianism?

The protection part.... I don't think that most people think they are living in a police state, cause it doesn't effect their own individual lives that much.  Yes, at the airport, and some other things, but for the most part, they are willing to be inconvenienced for thinking they are getting a higher amount of safety.  As I've said, it's too bad it's come down to this, but most people will put up with it, because they feel the gov't is trying to protect us.  Geez, hardly a day goes by where some commentator doesn't say how well it's working, cause we haven't been attacked since 9/11.  Most believe this, whether it's true or not.  I personally think there's too much intrusion, but I think I'm in the minority on this.

Well, that’s all entirely true—but how does that make it part of libertarianism? The vast majority of people in this country are asleep, except for the minority, such as yourself, who realize that they’ve gone far too far.
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Ren

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2008, 01:19:24 am »

Jraxis:

We're actually having a conversation.  This is fun.  Too bad I have to get to sleep.  Reading these sites is definitely stretching my "borders".  Actually, I haven't been so interested in something in yrs.  This site has been quite a find. 

Anyway, from what I gather, protection from the gov't is part of libertarianism.  I'm I mistaken?  What does protection by the gov't mean to a libertarian then?
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Ferg

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Re: LP Co-Founder: "The Barr Campaign Is Over"
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2008, 02:14:03 am »

Anyway, from what I gather, protection from the gov't is part of libertarianism.  I'm I mistaken?  What does protection by the gov't mean to a libertarian then?

Ren, I appreciate you stoking the fire of the forum.

Perhaps no-one has said this yet, but there are two camps within libertarianism (and sub-camps within the two). Anarchists/voluntarists believe in no governmental authority, other than by express consent or unanimous agreement (extremely local), and minarchists/classical-liberals desire a government, but only for limited and defensive purposes.

So... minarchists do favor protection of natural rights--life, liberty, and property. However, as far as I can gauge, the police don't appear to be protecting anyone, certainly none of the above rights. (I fear the police more than anyone else in society.) Rather, they are in the business of enforcing compliance and protecting the government (while it gets ever more sophisticated at extracting wealth and labor from its subjects). The relationship has been turned on its head.

After reading your messages, I get the impression that you and the other contributors are talking past each other, although not intentionally, because at a fundamental level you still see the government as on your side, while most libertarians see the government as hostile. I suggest that gradually your view of government intentions will change, and you will no longer see the government as there to help you. (Perhaps a little reading on Waco and Ruby Ridge will change your view.) The government perpetuates itself not by serving the needs of its constituents, but by continually enriching its vested interests and by satisfying those with a lust for power.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 04:27:42 pm by Ferg »
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