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Author Topic: open carry protests  (Read 89900 times)

margomaps

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2008, 03:57:11 pm »

Unfortunately the "social contract" as well as the idea that "government is founded of and by the people, instituted for the common good" -- these are ideas that are constantly used to justify all manner of infringement on liberty.  It's pretty easy for one to mask almost any government mischief or atrocity behind the cover of "for the common good."

I wouldn't hang my hat on these ideas, or on any constitution that I didn't personally agree to and sign.   :)
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2008, 04:06:59 pm »

Fair enough... but you would also have no right to life, liberty, or property... these social agreements only occur because of this contract.
This is why the Right to Travel unfettered does not exist... there is no societal agreement to such.
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rossby

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2008, 04:14:22 pm »

I wouldn't hang my hat on these ideas, or on any constitution that I didn't personally agree to and sign.   :)

Not a terrible idea itself.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2008, 04:30:47 pm »

Then there is no right to travel unfettered...
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kelteckiller

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2008, 04:54:17 pm »

So say we don't need registration or license or road tolls, etc...How do we pay to maintain the roads?  Just curious...
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MaineShark

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2008, 05:08:42 pm »

Public property (including roads) are owned by the association of citizens... and are under the control of those citizen through their agents.

Really?  Where is this association, and how does one join?

The NH Constitution is very astute in where its power originates from...

Article 1. [Equality of Men; Origin and Object of Government.] All men are born equally free and independent; therefore, all government of right originates from the people, is founded in consent, and instituted for the general good.

[Art.] 3. [Society, its Organization and Purposes.] When men enter into a state of society, they surrender up some of their natural rights to that society, in order to ensure the protection of others; and, without such an equivalent, the surrender is void.

[Art.] 12. [Protection and Taxation Reciprocal.] Every member of the community has a right to be protected by it, in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property; he is therefore bound to contribute his share in the expense of such protection, and to yield his personal service when necessary. But no part of a man’s property shall be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people. Nor are the inhabitants of this state controllable by any other laws than those to which they, or their representative body, have given their consent.

I do NOT consent.

Fair enough... but you would also have no right to life, liberty, or property... these social agreements only occur because of this contract.

Those rights are inherent in the human condition.  No "agreement" can give you rights which you do not have, by nature of your humanity.  The only thing you can gain by forming agreements and contracts are privileges.

So say we don't need registration or license or road tolls, etc...How do we pay to maintain the roads?  Just curious...

You think that registration and licensing fees pay for the roads?

Tolls are a completely different question.  Not that they pay for the roads, either - most (if not all) tollbooths are operating at a loss.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

kelteckiller

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2008, 05:20:43 pm »



You think that registration and licensing fees pay for the roads?

No, but they do help pay for enforcement of the laws upon the road.  I have been to and seen a society without rules and laws upon the roadway.  There are a ridiculous amount of fatal accidents and just accidents resulting in major injuries.  I think the US should put into place a system more like Europe's, where the speed limit signs are electronic and change with the conditions i.e. weather, traffic volume, time of day, etc.  When the weather is clear and there is little traffic, there is practically no speed limit, but once the weather gets bad, traffic volume increases, etc the limit drops.

I didn't even want to bring up taxes to pay for roads...I have a fair understanding of the groups philosophy on taxes.  Just curious...How do you pay for road maintenance with no taxes or tolls???
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MaineShark

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2008, 05:28:53 pm »

No, but they do help pay for enforcement of the laws upon the road.  I have been to and seen a society without rules and laws upon the roadway.  There are a ridiculous amount of fatal accidents and just accidents resulting in major injuries.

Oh?  Is that as factual as your other unsupported claims?

I think the US should put into place a system more like Europe's, where the speed limit signs are electronic and change with the conditions i.e. weather, traffic volume, time of day, etc.  When the weather is clear and there is little traffic, there is practically no speed limit, but once the weather gets bad, traffic volume increases, etc the limit drops.

Um, the speed limit in NH is 65, except in some towns.  The signs are recommendations, but as long as your speed is "reasonable and prudent," you are not violating any law.  Last I checked, anyway...

I didn't even want to bring up taxes to pay for roads...I have a fair understanding of the groups philosophy on taxes.  Just curious...How do you pay for road maintenance with no taxes or tolls???

Um, you do have tolls.  Tolls are user fees, and only apply to those who want to use a certain portion of the road.  That has nothing to do with taxation, which is applied to folks who don't even drive on that road.  Why should I pay for your road?  I have no problem paying for my road, but demanding that I pay for your road is just socialist nonsense.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

John Edward Mercier

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2008, 06:29:04 pm »

Tolls go to pay for turnpikes. Registration has two parts the first goes to the State... the second to the municipality to help pay for the cost of road maintenance.

Your life is inherent (not granted from society)... your right to life is not.
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MaineShark

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2008, 06:45:49 pm »

Tolls go to pay for turnpikes. Registration has two parts the first goes to the State... the second to the municipality to help pay for the cost of road maintenance.

Yeah, those few dollars really pay for the roads... ::)

Your life is inherent (not granted from society)... your right to life is not.

Rights are inherent in being human.  No one can "grant" a right.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

kelteckiller

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2008, 07:26:03 pm »

No, but they do help pay for enforcement of the laws upon the road.  I have been to and seen a society without rules and laws upon the roadway.  There are a ridiculous amount of fatal accidents and just accidents resulting in major injuries.

Oh?  Is that as factual as your other unsupported claims?

I think the US should put into place a system more like Europe's, where the speed limit signs are electronic and change with the conditions i.e. weather, traffic volume, time of day, etc.  When the weather is clear and there is little traffic, there is practically no speed limit, but once the weather gets bad, traffic volume increases, etc the limit drops.

Um, the speed limit in NH is 65, except in some towns.  The signs are recommendations, but as long as your speed is "reasonable and prudent," you are not violating any law.  Last I checked, anyway...

I didn't even want to bring up taxes to pay for roads...I have a fair understanding of the groups philosophy on taxes.  Just curious...How do you pay for road maintenance with no taxes or tolls???

Um, you do have tolls.  Tolls are user fees, and only apply to those who want to use a certain portion of the road.  That has nothing to do with taxation, which is applied to folks who don't even drive on that road.  Why should I pay for your road?  I have no problem paying for my road, but demanding that I pay for your road is just socialist nonsense.

Joe

65 is the maximum speed limit in the state. Any road and speed limit is based upon the conditions that exist, but no more than 65...that's the max.
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MaineShark

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2008, 07:36:29 pm »

65 is the maximum speed limit in the state. Any road and speed limit is based upon the conditions that exist, but no more than 65...that's the max.

What is "any road and speed limit is based upon the conditions that exist" supposed to mean?

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

kelteckiller

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2008, 07:49:24 pm »

65 is the maximum speed limit in the state. Any road and speed limit is based upon the conditions that exist, but no more than 65...that's the max.

What is "any road and speed limit is based upon the conditions that exist" supposed to mean?

Joe

What they mean when they say that, is that if it is snowing, for instance, and the roads are snow covered and the speed limit is 50 mph.  If you are driving 50 mph, you can get a ticket for going faster "than reasonable for the conditions that exist".  It can work the other way as well.  If the speed limit is 35 and it is the middle of the day, no traffic, and great weather and you get a speeding ticket for 45 in a 35, you can argue to a judge that your speed was reasonable for the conditions that existed.  However, NH has a "maximum speed limit".  That speed is 65 mph.  By law, you can not go over that.  Of course everyone does, within reason, but in court that is the MAX...
Hope that helped.
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MaineShark

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2008, 07:55:05 pm »

What they mean when they say that, is that if it is snowing, for instance, and the roads are snow covered and the speed limit is 50 mph.  If you are driving 50 mph, you can get a ticket for going faster "than reasonable for the conditions that exist".  It can work the other way as well.  If the speed limit is 35 and it is the middle of the day, no traffic, and great weather and you get a speeding ticket for 45 in a 35, you can argue to a judge that your speed was reasonable for the conditions that existed.  However, NH has a "maximum speed limit".  That speed is 65 mph.  By law, you can not go over that.  Of course everyone does, within reason, but in court that is the MAX...
Hope that helped.

Um, that's what I said.

However, since "everyone does," that means that you are breaking "THE LAW," doesn't it?  I thought that was unacceptable behavior?

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

kelteckiller

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Re: open carry protests
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2008, 07:57:50 pm »

What they mean when they say that, is that if it is snowing, for instance, and the roads are snow covered and the speed limit is 50 mph.  If you are driving 50 mph, you can get a ticket for going faster "than reasonable for the conditions that exist".  It can work the other way as well.  If the speed limit is 35 and it is the middle of the day, no traffic, and great weather and you get a speeding ticket for 45 in a 35, you can argue to a judge that your speed was reasonable for the conditions that existed.  However, NH has a "maximum speed limit".  That speed is 65 mph.  By law, you can not go over that.  Of course everyone does, within reason, but in court that is the MAX...
Hope that helped.

Um, that's what I said.

However, since "everyone does," that means that you are breaking "THE LAW," doesn't it?  I thought that was unacceptable behavior?

Joe

Sure everyone speeds.  It is not necessarily breaking the law though.  As I previously stated, I go above the posted speed limit, but it is a speed I feel is reasonable for the conditions that exist.  It is very subjective...As far as it being "unacceptable behavior", I would say that officer that stopped Lauren felt that her speed was not reasonable for the conditions that existed. If it wasn't the case, she should have brought it before a judge to argue her side as to why her speed was reasonable...
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